Conn 6H Engraving?

[ttf_Euphanasia]

There's a horn listed on ebay as a 6H. It's a .500 bore, but the bell is less than 8" and the engraving looks 4H-ish to me. The seller has been very cooperative, and it's clear he's not out to scam anyone. Has anyone else seen a 6H with this engraving?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152674007308

[ttf_hyperbolica]

I have a 78h bell with that exact engraving. It is fractionally less than 8", like 7 7/8". 1950s vintage. Is it possibly a 77h? 77h was 500 bore, 7.5" bell. Can't tell if the bell you show is yellow or rose. My 78h bell is rose, but most 77 and 78s are yellow, I think.

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn77H1972image.html

[ttf_slide advantage]

It most likely is a 6H, but from the earlier generation when they had the 7 1/2" bell diameter and the old school engraving.

I would ask the seller if he would provide a close up photo of the model # stamp just to make sure.

[ttf_CJ]

He mentions that the finish is not original in the add.  Possibly a frankenbone.

[ttf_Rockymountaintrombone]

I just sold a 6H (with 8" bell) that had that exact same engraving. Mine was from approximately 1950. My 8H from the same era has the same engraving, as did a 78H that I owned from the same era. That engraving was used on many of Conn's instruments in the 50's, including 6H's for a time. Sometime in that decade, they went to the marching men logo on the bell, and some 6H's from earlier had smaller bells (7.5?). This horn is quite possibly all original, and also may have all the same specs as the more recent 6H's.

Jim Scott

[ttf_Euphanasia]

Hmm. I've never seen a 6H with that engraving. I guess I'm used to the Marching Men versions with the more curvy engraving.

He says the horn is stamped 6H, but that it has a 7.5" bell.

[ttf_BiggieSmalls]

I have a 1950 6H bell (8") with the same half-moon art deco engraving, and a '59 with the marching men. Thinking back on others I've owned/played, it seems as though the change in engraving happened circa 1956. I had a '55 with half-moon deco engraving, and played a friend's '57 that had marching men.

[ttf_Euphanasia]

Quote from: BiggieSmalls on Aug 25, 2017, 10:23AMI have a 1950 6H bell (8") with the same half-moon art deco engraving, and a '59 with the marching men. Thinking back on others I've owned/played, it seems as though the change in engraving happened circa 1956. I had a '55 with half-moon deco engraving, and played a friend's '57 that had marching men.




So if a '50 had an 8" bell, it would stand to reason that a '52 like the one being sold would also have an 8" bell. It seems likely that this one has had a bell swap done. Or more likely, had a 6H tenon and slide added to it. There appears to be solder bleed around the tenon brace flange.

[ttf_CJ]

Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 25, 2017, 10:45AM It seems likely that this one has had a bell swap done. Or more likely, had a 6H tenon and slide added to it. There appears to be solder bleed around the tenon brace flange.
What about the tenon brace itself?  These are usually silver in color.  Curious.

[ttf_JWykell]

Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 25, 2017, 10:45AMSo if a '50 had an 8" bell, it would stand to reason that a '52 like the one being sold would also have an 8" bell...



According to the Conn Loyalist from 1911-1928 Conn made the 6h with a 7 1/2 or 8 inch bell. Then discontinued production, and started making the instrument again in 1937 with a standard 8 inch bell. It is possible I suppose that this is a pre 1937 instrument. It is also possible that it was a custom ordered 6h with a 7 1/2 inch bell made in the 50's. Certainly custom Conn's from that time period are common.

[ttf_Rockymountaintrombone]

I have definitely seen some 6H's with smaller bells - Dillon's had several on the wall with all of the used trombones of various sizes and engravings. Same with 78H's. I'm not sure that the 8" size was the standard for these horns until sometime in the 50's Conn may have offered options to their customers until it became too much for them to accommodate. I also saw a red brass 6H at a church where I used to teach some beginner players, back when I was in school. I remember it because I was playing an 88H at the time, and the thought of a red brass small horn to compliment it was tempting. It was old (20's or 30's) but in surprisingly good condition. I was never there at the same time as someone who might have been able to authorize a sale, so it was one that got away.

Jim Scott

[ttf_BiggieSmalls]

Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 25, 2017, 10:45AMSo if a '50 had an 8" bell, it would stand to reason that a '52 like the one being sold would also have an 8" bell. It seems likely that this one has had a bell swap done. Or more likely, had a 6H tenon and slide added to it. There appears to be solder bleed around the tenon brace flange.



I have a '55 Burkle (7.5" bell) with the same engraving. 32H bell brace flanges are oval as opposed to the usual (Elkhart) diamond shape seen in the eBay images, but I suppose it could be a Burkle bell grafted onto a 6H frame.

The all-brass TS braces and brass/nickel bell brass are very unusual and likely retro-fit; I've never seen this on any Conn pro horn from the '50's.

Another possible clue, if the case is original to the horn: the '50's Burkles I've owned have all had burgundy-lined brown coffin cases with stitched leather handles, like the one in the image, whereas the 6H cases from the '50's are typically black or two-tone gray/black slim-line with blue or peacock blue linings.

[ttf_Arrowhead99]

Yes, I had a 6H with the art deco engraving and the 7 1/2" bell, with the Choice Of The Artist labeled on the counterweight. I think this was the style up through the 40's before they switched to the CONN counterweight, with the marching men  on the bell. I think it was early 50's when they switched over to this style. According to the Conn Loyalist website, the 7 1/2" bell on the 6H was made all the way up through 1949.
The Conn 6H I had was from 1940.

[ttf_BiggieSmalls]

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Aug 25, 2017, 02:27PMYes, I had a 6H with the art deco engraving and the 7 1/2" bell, with the Choice Of The Artist labeled on the counterweight. I think this was the style up through the 40's before they switched to the CONN counterweight, with the marching men  on the bell. I think it was early 50's when they switched over to this style. According to the Conn Loyalist website, the 7 1/2" bell on the 6H was made all the way up through 1949.
The Conn 6H I had was from 1940.

This seems like the most likely match. I've never owned a '40's 6H, so it's good to get input from someone who has.

[ttf_Arrowhead99]

The older style 6H is a slightly different blow than the 8" bell 50's version.
Mine had chopped sleeves, blew "hot" with tons of center to the sound. Maybe it was the particular leadpipe I had but I found it to be just a bit stiff.
Aesthetically, I like the older art deco engraving with the old style counterweight, but I like the 8" bell and verticalness of the latter version.

Also, I think Conn started using more of a "French brass" alloy mix in the 50's version on upwards for the 6H. The 40's version I think is more of a cartridge brass alloy with nickel-silver trim; basically like a 4H.

[ttf_BiggieSmalls]

The 8" 6H bells seem to have gotten heavier over the course of the '50's.  Late '50's/early '60's have been my favorites.

[ttf_Dantheman]

I have 1954 with that engraving.

I've only seen 7.5 bells with the old style cork barrels.

[ttf_Arrowhead99]

It sounds like Conn perhaps offered different versions of the 6H throughout the early 50's, either as customs or they made the bells ahead of time and it just sat for awhile before all the old stock liquidated.

I have a 12H from 1950; art deco of the engraving, CHOICE OF THE ARTISTS on the counterweight. Plays almost exactly the same as the 6H, just with a little more core to the sound and a tad bit darker.

[ttf_Duffle]

Half moonies on 8Hs and 88Hs went on up to 1960 - some 1960's are half moonies and some are the more simplified engraving that typified the '60's bells....

[ttf_dj kennedy]

earlier 6h //smaller  flare  //some w  shortie  cork barrels   ///flat sider weights //red cases  ////deco ''tulip  pattern  half moon  //6h  way old design //engraving change scrolly marching  player    raised letter  weight several variations case designs    and outer slide metal  up thru  transition  to  5h    last variant 
 300,000  -to  900,000sC   E     M   SERIES etc 
==================================================
connwear  common  on inners    usually conn 3  mpc 









Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 25, 2017, 07:46AMThere's a horn listed on ebay as a 6H. It's a .500 bore, but the bell is less than 8" and the engraving looks 4H-ish to me. The seller has been very cooperative, and it's clear he's not out to scam anyone. Has anyone else seen a 6H with this engraving?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152674007308

[ttf_dj kennedy]

earlier 6h //smaller  flare  //some w  shortie  cork barrels   ///flat sider weights //red cases  ////deco ''tulip  pattern  half moon  //6h  way old design //engraving change scrolly marching  player    raised letter  weight several variations case designs    and outer slide metal  up thru  transition  to  5h    last variant 
 300,000  -to  900,000sC   E     M   SERIES etc 
==================================================
connwear  common  on inners    usually conn 3  mpc 









Quote from: Euphanasia on Aug 25, 2017, 07:46AMThere's a horn listed on ebay as a 6H. It's a .500 bore, but the bell is less than 8" and the engraving looks 4H-ish to me. The seller has been very cooperative, and it's clear he's not out to scam anyone. Has anyone else seen a 6H with this engraving?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152674007308