Shires Tenor Components/Parts Buying Advice

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:23 pm

I hope some of you that are familiar with Shires trombones can give me some advice concerning the direction I should go. I'm in the process of piecing together a Shires tenor by buying used parts.

After playing a 1970-75 corporation Bach 42 modified to be a convertible 42B for over 35 years I have decided to look into possible benefits of Shires trombones. I have begun this by purchasing a used Shires axial valve section, gold brass tuning slide, and a 1G bell. Currently I'm using this with my Bach 42 slide and a Hammond 12ML mouthpiece. I had also been playing a Schilke 51 on the Bach until getting the Hammond recently.

I am primarily an orchestral player and I really like the above setup although I am planning to eventually get a Shires slide - most likely a TW47. But the order of what I get next may change depending on some of the advice I get. One of the incentives for moving from my Bach 42B setup to Shires is to get a more "singing"/easier-playing upper range and yet maintain the lower register qualities of the Bach that I like. So far that seems to be happening to a degree but I suspect that there are still some other choices - other bells, tuning slides, slides, or leadpipes (my Bach lp is not interchangeable and I've not had it removed before) - that might help even more with the upper range. I've read on the forum a review of the 1G (Shires Bells - 1G vs. 2RVE) that one of the members bought a number of years ago and he commented that his 2RVE bell had a more "singing" upper range but was too light for his use in an orchestral setting. My original plan (until I found a very good deal on the 1G bell in great condition) was to get a 7 series bell - 7YM or 7YLW - and now I wonder if either of those bells would tend to have a more "singing" (resonant I guess) upper range, specifically high Bb to Eb. I've heard so many good comments regarding the 7 series bell that I wonder if that bell would better help me achieve my goals. Another thing that I've noticed is that for me accuracy seems to be better with the Shires equipment that I'm using so far. I suspect that a Shires slide, different leadpipe, and possibly a different bell would help in that area even more.

All of this was precipitated by a purchase of a very inexpensive trombone that was supposed to be .547 bore but is likely slightly smaller than that - maybe .535-.540. Even though that horn doesn't really have the ability to provide the tonal characteristics I desire, especially at louder volumes, it does sing well in the upper range, is easier to play than my Bach, and I'm generally more accurate playing it than the Bach. But the things I like about that horn got me wondering if I would be better off with something other than my Bach (although I definitely plan to keep it!).

A knowledgable friend has suggested that I may want to get a Shires slide next and that the leadpipe in my Bach is probably most similar to a Shires #1 leadpipe and that I would probably like a change to a more open #2 pipe.

I guess I could save up $5K and check into the Shires rehab center (for severe Shires trombone acquisition syndrome) and get a proper fitting to figure out what I need. But I'm a little cash short and I'm going to have to resort to second hand gems.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions - other than to quit playing trombone.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:36 pm

The best way really is to build the instrument from the ground up with the guidance of someone who understands the system and has a good selection of components - the factory or one of the better stocked dealers.

That said...

I see you're in South Carolina...Newell Sheridan from Birmingham AL is a great resource. He always has a good stock of new and used Shires components, and he's very good about trade-ins. As a bonus, he travels around a lot in a motor home with his stock, so he may very well be in your area sometime in the next few months.

So I would advise you to go ahead and keep on the lookout for a used TW47 slide, and see if you can find a 1.5 leadpipe - the "just right" pipe that Bach players often gravitate to. Play it for a while and see how you like it. If you see a 7YM or 7YLW bell for a good price, grab it.

And try to meet up with Newell at some point. He'll take care of you.

Full disclosure: I used to do sales for the Shires company.

ttf_TNTBONE · Post by **ttf_TNTBONE** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Gabe gave you good advice and if you can try various Shires configurations, that will be your best bet.

I was mostly a Bach fan as it appears you have been. This year at ATW I played several Shires configurations and Ben Griffin was a tremendous help. My go to Bach set up was a Friedman gold bell, yellow tuning slide, Artisan LaRosa valve section and my 1975 Bach 42 LT WT Slide. I used a MV 42 copper lead pipe as well. What I have found to be a slight upgrade in the Shires line is the Shires Chicago gold bell with the X tuning slide. I prefer the rotor valve, but many folks like the dual bore valve. I use the same Bach 42 LT WT slide and a Shires 1 1/2 leadpipe. I hope this helps... Greg

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:28 pm

Thanks Gabe and Greg! Very helpful advice!

Gabe, actually I'm near Galax, Virginia (far southwest rural Virginia)where there are no symphony orchestras within an hour's drive - there is in Winston-Salem (1.5 hour), Greensboro NC (2 hours), Roanoke, VA (2 hours)- and I'm on sub list for them - so that's why I drive 4 hours to play in the Aiken SO. And fortunately my sister also lives there so I get to visit her on a regular basis!

I'd love to try a lot of stuff and get some help from the factory or dealer but I wouldn't feel right about taking advantage of their services knowing in advance that I simply can't afford a new instrument or new parts. So, your suggestion to work with someone like Newell who deals in used components is a great suggestion. Funny coincidence, we might be traveling around in a motorhome in the near future too so we may be able to rendezvous with him at some point. Can you private message his contact info - or is it just as easy to Google to find it?

In any event all your specific suggestions - TW47 slide, 7YM or 7YLW bell, 1.5 leadpipe are pretty close to what I was thinking I would need next.

I know your Shires connection and I almost mentioned your name (as in hope you would respond) in my original post.

And Greg, thanks for mentioning the specifics of your setup. The Chicago bell is a 5 series bell, right? I'd like to try that too! And with the X tuning slide.

Another question for Gabe - or anyone who knows - is the 1G bell I have a medium weight bell or a heavy weight bell? I was under the impression that if there weren't a designation for weight it was assumed to be medium. But I seem to remember reading someone say differently about the 1G tenor bell.

Ken

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:35 pm

1G and 1Y were the original Shires bells. I have a 1G on my Yamaha 682. Medium weight, soldered rim. Nice bell. But there has been 20 years of innovation since then and maybe a different one would fit you better.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:59 pm

http://www.sheridanbrass.com/Sheridan_Brass/Home.html

The 1G is one of the first bell designs Steve did. At the time the fashion was heavier bells, so he made that standard weight. A 1GM (medium weight) is lighter, a 1GHW (heavy weight) is heavier, and a 1GLW is lightest.

Fashions have changed, and LW and M bells - especially in the type 7 construction, which have more stability at those weights than the type 1 bells - are much more standard now for orchestral tenor trombone. A 1G is still a great playing bell though, with great thickness and density to the sound. There's no reason for you not to play it if you find you like it better than any other option.

FWIW, when I play tenor I play the Chicago bell and an X tuning slide. It's one-piece like the type 5 bells, in lightweight gold brass. Being a bass trombone player, I try not to get too picky about my tenor...this one just responds great and feels right to me, and I was able to pick up a factory B-stock for a song (since I was working there).

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:34 pm

Not to belabor the point Gabe, and recognizing that the only real way to know is to personally try an instrument or combination, but which component would have the most profound effect on the upper register response and sound, a 7YM bell or a TW47 slide? I know of a possible good deal on a 7YM so that might be a good first step but I wonder if I might notice more gains from changing to a TW47 slide. There's also a possibly good deal on a TB47YC slide but then wonder if that may play a lot like my 42 slide although I would be able to use a #1.5 or #2 pipe in it. To get an X taper tuning slide I may have to break down and buy new because I haven't noticed many of those for sale on the used market.

Thanks again for your insight into Shires history and bell designs as well as your own personal playing experience with these instruments!

Ken

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:29 am

The 1G bell on my Yamaha did nothing for or to my high range. Practicing range exercises did a lot more.

Mouthpiece and leadpipe can make more difference in that aspect.

My section mate, who plays a Bach 42 with an early Thayer said the 1G made me sound more "Bach like".

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:41 am

Quote from: loudtrombone on Aug 16, 2017, 11:34PMNot to belabor the point Gabe, and recognizing that the only real way to know is to personally try an instrument or combination, but which component would have the most profound effect on the upper register response and sound, a 7YM bell or a TW47 slide?

That's impossible to answer without working with you directly.

ttf_griffinben · Post by **ttf_griffinben** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:42 am

Gabe is giving you great advice, I wholeheartedly echo what he has said. Every word of it.

Ben

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:43 am

Kinda figured that it would be hard to say without personally testing. Thanks for your suggestions and the info Gabe, Matt, Greg, Bruce, and Ben!

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:47 pm

You're rocking the Bach 42 slide on the Shires bell section right?

While this is coming from a bass trombone perspective... I was rocking a Edwards slide on my bass trombone Shires bell section for almost a year before I found the model of Shires slide I wanted for a good price.

I used the same leadpipe between slides, and while it maybe only made a 5% difference in my playing, when you're playing at a high level even 1-2% is pretty big for the player. Pretty much a lot of the quirks the horn had got ironed out and I finally had that legendary smooth Shires feel. I suspect the changes came due to the slides both having slightly different lengths, rounded vs sorta square crook and the Edwards slide was a little heavier.

For me having a Shires slide on a Shires horn made a significant difference in how the horn handled and in my opinion for the better.

Personally I'd get a slide first if you're looking at changing the blow of your horn.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 17, 2017, 12:47PMPersonally I'd get a slide first if you're looking at changing the blow of your horn.

My first step into the Shires world was a B62 slide on my Holton TR181. Wow - what a difference. You wouldn't think the slide could make such a change, but it did. I can almost guarantee you that if I put a Shires bell/valves with my 181 slide it would have been nowhere near as big of an improvement. Of course, once I got a full Shires, it was the cat's meow.

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:33 pm

Thanks too for your input mr. deacon and Tim!

For anyone interested and/or still following this thread, I have a Shires TW47 slide with a #2 pipe on the way and once I've had a chance to try it out I'll give a report on my experiences with it on my 1G bell, axial valve, and gold tuning slide as a point of reference for anyone else trying to make an educated guess as to how these or other components might work together for them. Well, as close as we can get using words rather than personally play testing yourself.

Ken

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:46 am

Its been stated many times here on the Forum. A Boutique horn needs to be put together by the player who will be playing it. It's the only way YOU will know how it plays for you. I'm sure the good folks at Shires will be happy to help you out. Good luck.

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:25 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Aug 24, 2017, 06:46AMIts been stated many times here on the Forum. A Boutique horn needs to be put together by the player who will be playing it. It's the only way YOU will know how it plays for you. I'm sure the good folks at Shires will be happy to help you out. Good luck.

You're absolutely right. But right only regarding new instruments. I can't afford to buy a brand new horn and I suspect that Shires wouldn't encourage me to visit the factory or a dealer, spend hours of their time for a fitting, and then go out and buy all the necessary parts on the used market. I doubt that any of their dealers has a collection of low-priced used components as extensive as the new parts at the factory that I could try out either in person or by shipping to me to try on approval. With a good conscience I couldn't pretend I'm in the market for a new horn, knowing that I'm actually going to be looking for a used one or used components. That said, one can buy parts based on verbal recommendations, perhaps find that the part they bought didn't work for them and then have to sell the part themselves and try something else. Happens all the time. Just look at the classified section of the forum.

The good folks at Shires have been happy to help me out by sharing their information here and elsewhere on this forum and I appreciate that.

Fortunately for me, with the help of comments from those in the know in this thread and elsewhere, I have been able to put together a wonderful Shires tenor. I recently got a fantastic deal on a nearly new Shires TW47 slide and it has made all the difference for me. Although it was put together one piece at a time I've been able to have a complete Shires tenor - 1G bell, axial valve, gold tuning slide, TW47 hand slide - from components all in excellent condition for $2200. And it works very well for me!

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:54 pm

Stopped at Dillon Music today and put together a Rath R 9. New parts, old parts, didn't matter. The process is the same.

ttf_hassein · Post by **ttf_hassein** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:10 pm

What?? why didn't you call?

ttf_loudtrombone · Post by **ttf_loudtrombone** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:58 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Aug 28, 2017, 02:54PMStopped at Dillon Music today and put together a Rath R 9. New parts, old parts, didn't matter. The process is the same.

It would probably be awhile before I could afford the time or expense of a trip to New Jersey but does Dillon carry a good selection of used Shires parts - bells, slides, valves - in their store? I've heard they have more than what's listed on their website and that the best way to check is to give them a call. Currently on their website there is only a few Shires parts. Process is the same if a good selection is available.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:22 pm

Quote from: loudtrombone on Aug 29, 2017, 08:58PMIt would probably be awhile before I could afford the time or expense of a trip to New Jersey but does Dillon carry a good selection of used Shires parts - bells, slides, valves - in their store? I've heard they have more than what's listed on their website and that the best way to check is to give them a call. Currently on their website there is only a few Shires parts. Process is the same if a good selection is available.

I didn't pay attention to Shires stock but they do have a lot of things there not on their website. Lots more. But on the process point I think you're missing my point. But that's okay.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:22 pm

Quote from: loudtrombone on Aug 29, 2017, 08:58PMIt would probably be awhile before I could afford the time or expense of a trip to New Jersey but does Dillon carry a good selection of used Shires parts - bells, slides, valves - in their store? I've heard they have more than what's listed on their website and that the best way to check is to give them a call. Currently on their website there is only a few Shires parts. Process is the same if a good selection is available.

I didn't pay attention to Shires stock but they do have a lot of things there not on their website. Lots more. But on the process point I think you're missing my point. But that's okay.