Donations

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:55 pm

There are a few problems with that clause Geezer. First, the site is open internationally and the international laws concerning copyright will apply, not whatever is stated here. 2nd, once editing is disallowed the content is fixed in a medium - whatever it is stored on. Finally, in the vast majority of countries in the world the creator of any Intelectual property has ultimate ownership of such IP unless they specifically release it to someone else. This must additionally done for each identifiable item of IP (photograph, piece of music, painting, written ideas, designs, etc...).

Example, the things I write here are not outside my control unless I relinquish control individually to each post. The laws in both Canada and the US make it clear that if I want my content removed, it must be.

I herewith grant permission for my contributed content to this site to be moved to trombonechat.com provided that such content, once moved, shall remain my property. I also grant permission for said content to be made available for public viewing trough the trombonechat.com website.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:02 pm

This is amazing! I want all the nonsense I've written on here to be removed permanently.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:16 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jan 11, 2018, 06:02PMThis is amazing! I want all the nonsense I've written on here to be removed permanently.

We don't usually do that. Sorry.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:29 pm

Quote from: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 05:55PMThere are a few problems with that clause Geezer. First, the site is open internationally and the international laws concerning copyright will apply, not whatever is stated here. 2nd, once editing is disallowed the content is fixed in a medium - whatever it is stored on. Finally, in the vast majority of countries in the world the creator of any Intelectual property has ultimate ownership of such IP unless they specifically release it to someone else. This must additionally done for each identifiable item of IP (photograph, piece of music, painting, written ideas, designs, etc...).

Example, the things I write here are not outside my control unless I relinquish control individually to each post. The laws in both Canada and the US make it clear that if I want my content removed, it must be.

I herewith grant permission for my contributed content to this site to be moved to trombonechat.com provided that such content, once moved, shall remain my property. I also grant permission for said content to be made available for public viewing trough the trombonechat.com website.

Me too!

Well, that's two down! 19,401 to go! It's a start...

...Geezer

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 06:16PMWe don't usually do that. Sorry.

But he said. It says...

But. But

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:13 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 06:16PMWe don't usually do that. Sorry.

It s Harrisons right. If he really wants it done, you legally have to do it.

Should not be that much effort. I know phpbb and other forum systems. They are all database backed and everyones posts should be easily selected and deleted. This one is likely not too diffferent.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:19 pm

Should be.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:34 pm

Just more jokes. No need to delete all the secrets and gold nuggets I've deposited on this forum.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:13 pm

We had a situation a year or two ago. Frank Rossolino's widow was in the middle of a battle with a woman claiming to be Rossolino's daughter. The widow wanted ALL posts from the "daughter" removed. We did it. Then her lawyer went to the Wayback Machine (where many Internet posts are cached) and found the posts we had removed and demanded we remove them. We have no control over the Wayback Machine caches; she would have to take it up with them.

We also had a major pro who was posting pretty regularly on here suddenly remove all his posts by changing them to periods. That was when we decided that there would be a limit to the amount of editing we would allow. You want us to remove all posts? Send a lawyer's letter to RLB. He owns all the content.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:35 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 08:13PM Send a lawyer's letter to RLB. He owns all the content.

I hate to be contrary, but he does not own the content. He does not own the code. He does not even own the operating system. He only owns the hardware it is all running on.

He can delete everything if he wants, but there is nothing else he can legally do without express permission from the creators of the content. Of course he can break the law and force us into the unenviable position of having to fight for our IP. It all depends on who has the most money to buy lawyers. If, of course, he is so inclined.

Needless to say, he cannot object to the content being copied. Only we can. Matt has copied it already and Im fine with that.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:17 am

Its one of those things that we probably won't know until it actually happens but fortunatley I do have a backup of any of the important stuff. Pictures are going to be a little bit more interesting to be honest. In the US at least, the owner of the picture is the one who took the picture, which obviously doesn't get enforced super strictly or else all of your vacation photos you asked that stranger on the street would need to give you permission to share them with your friends

So I have a backup of the images that are posted publicly as well... though I didn't write a parser if they weren't embeded. In other words, if you used the image tags and my bot could "see" the picture, it would download it. If it was a link to dropbox/photobucket, etc. then it just kept the links to it. I then put a placeholder in the text for the location on my file system. That way I wouldn't store a bunch of duplicate photos... or else I'd have a TB of "

" alone! I do have a copy of all of the uncopied images too so occasionally it checks to see if they're rehosted and if I get around to it I can use the API for the various other places they're stored but a lot of those pictures are from the classifieds so I don't think its super imperative to get those. Although it occurs to me as I type this related XKCD cartoon...

ttf_Wilktone · Post by **ttf_Wilktone** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:52 am

It might be time to simply lock all topics here and post stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat forum. Let this site be its own archive. Honestly, there's nothing here that won't be duplicated over there once things are active.

ttf_Todd Jonz · Post by **ttf_Todd Jonz** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:20 am

Wilktone writes:

> It might be time to simply lock all topics here and post
> stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat
> forum. Let this site be its own archive.

This is the best suggestion yet, particularly because it addresses some significant obstacles. It's wrong to assume that content scraped from this site can easily be imported into another site like TromboneChat. For example, there's no easy way to automatically map:

[li] users on TTF to users on TC (if I register on TC using someone else's TTF user ID I can take control of that user's past posts when they are imported into TC); [/li][li] TTF users to TC users who use different IDs on the two sites; [/li][li] forums and sub-forums from one site to the other (the essential nature of "boards" differs significantly between the two sites.) [/li]

These are just the readily identifiable problems; this list is is undoubtedly incomplete. While I'm sure a protocol for resolving these issues could be put in place, its implementation would rely on a significant amount of compromise and human intervention.

> There's nothing here that won't be duplicated over
> there once things are active.

Exactly. If the community were to migrate to TC there's no reason TTF couldn't continue to operate as an archive of past discussions. Alternatively, I'm sure there are folks out there who would happily provide financial and/or technical support to a new archive site populated with content scraped from TTF. Either way, there's no advantage in moving these archival discussion threads to TC. I would further assert that importing just a month's worth of recent TTF posts into TC would be sufficient to facilitate ongoing discussions seamlessly -- *if* the proprietor were interested in doing so.

Finally, I consider the discussion of copyright issues here to be an abject waste of time. IMHO many (most?) of the interpretations of copyright law expressed so far in this thread are just plain wrong. The only ones who need be concerned about copyright issues are people proposing to host scraped TTF content on another site, and I'm sure those individuals would be wise enough to consult with an IP attorney before acting if they have genuine concerns.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am

Quote from: Wilktone on Jan 12, 2018, 07:52AMIt might be time to simply lock all topics here and post stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat forum. Let this site be its own archive. Honestly, there's nothing here that won't be duplicated over there once things are active.

Tabula rasa, baby!

...Geezer

ttf_Todd Jonz · Post by **ttf_Todd Jonz** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:45 am

Having already argued in favor if allowing TTF to evolve into a read-only archive of past discussions, I recognize that there are concerns about TTF's long-term survivability. While there's a lot of valuable information buried in the TTF archives, there's also a lot of dreck. Scraping picks up both. I assert there's an easier way to preserve "worthwhile" TTF content, but it requires help from the community to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Examine the URL for any TTF thread and you will see a string in the format "topic,<ThreadID>" where "<ThreadID>" is a number that uniquely identifies the thread. All of the posts in a thread can be retrieved in a single, unadorned HTML page containing only text by plugging the thread ID into this template:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?acti ... =<ThreadID>

For example, plugging "30197", the thread ID for the long-running "Pet Peeves" thread, into this template returns eleven years of posts in a single page. Massaging pages like this programatically into something a bit more attractive and readable is trivial, as is building a site to host them. In fact, if the proprietor of TromboneChat were interested it would be no big deal to incorporate a read-only "Best of TTF" archive separate from the rest of the discussion forum. The only real challenge would be building a list of "worthwhile" TTF thread IDs. Is the TTF community up to meeting this challenge?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:11 pm

Quote from: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 10:20AMIMHO many (most?) of the interpretations of copyright law expressed so far in this thread are just plain wrong. The only ones who need be concerned about copyright issues are people proposing to host scraped TTF content on another site...

I'm not sure where this came from, but it is wrong. You only need to go here and read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States.

There is no need to guess and slam the expressions of others in doing so.

While I'm not a lawyer, I am a trained and certified paralegal (I found this to be a handy thing for negotiating contracts during my career).

Whenever you create something (like this post for instance) the very act of creation gives you ownership and copyright to the work. It is the responsibility of each of us to know this and partake in how our works, however trivial, are handled. Of course you can just sit back and abdicate if you wish like most of us do, but the laws are pretty clear on who owns what and how they can re-assign those rights.

All that said, I don't think there is a lot here that is worth holding onto. All the most valuable stuff gets repeated frequently. If this site were to run as an archive for a year or two, or the content were to be archived elsewhere, that would be more than sufficient.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:23 pm

Euphanasia takes no responsibility for any perception of irony in the following image:

via Imgflip Meme Generator

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:07 pm

Quote from: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 11:45AMHaving already argued in favor if allowing TTF to evolve into a read-only archive of past discussions, I recognize that there are concerns about TTF's long-term survivability. While there's a lot of valuable information buried in the TTF archives, there's also a lot of dreck. Scraping picks up both. I assert there's an easier way to preserve "worthwhile" TTF content, but it requires help from the community to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Examine the URL for any TTF thread and you will see a string in the format "topic,<ThreadID>" where "<ThreadID>" is a number that uniquely identifies the thread. All of the posts in a thread can be retrieved in a single, unadorned HTML page containing only text by plugging the thread ID into this template:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?acti ... =<ThreadID>

For example, plugging "30197", the thread ID for the long-running "Pet Peeves" thread, into this template returns eleven years of posts in a single page. Massaging pages like this programatically into something a bit more attractive and readable is trivial, as is building a site to host them. In fact, if the proprietor of TromboneChat were interested it would be no big deal to incorporate a read-only "Best of TTF" archive separate from the rest of the discussion forum. The only real challenge would be building a list of "worthwhile" TTF thread IDs. Is the TTF community up to meeting this challenge?

My backup records all of the metadata about the post and the pseudo-markup that each posts contains. I can get it to Brian very easily (we actually live in the same area now) if we come up with that list.

For what it's worth, the WayBackMachine also records all of this information (but does a full scrape of the relative URls too even). The best course of action may well be, if we were wanting a "best of" type deals, to simply find them and then make a link to the WayBackMachine since it's already hosted and they have the legal stuff taken care of etc. etc.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:28 pm

Just as a side note, I would like to credit Jay Ward, creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle, for a huge number of icons in our society. There are the two spies, Boris and Natasha, who are regularly used as Russian Agents (although Ward claims they are not Russian) and their boss, Fearless Leader; a name often applied derogatively to a head of state. Another character, Mr.Peabody (a dog) had a time travel device called the Wayback Machine. Kudos to Mr. Ward for his contributions to our discussions.

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:32 pm

I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Thankfully it's nothing urgent.

ttf_Todd Jonz · Post by **ttf_Todd Jonz** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:59 pm

mwpfoot writes:

> I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Typical chicken/egg problem. When TC first went online there was plenty of traffic, and for a while I was optimistic that it would reach critical mass. Alas, for whatever reasons, the community migrated back to TTF. In retrospect it doesn't appear that TC can flourish unless TTF dies. I find this sad, given that the TC proprietor listens to his users and has proven his willingness to implement the changes and features those users want -- something that will never happen here. It's a mystery to me why people prefer to congregate on this creaky old site when there are infinite possibilities at TC.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:06 pm

Quote from: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 02:59PMmwpfoot writes:

> I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Typical chicken/egg problem. When TC first went online there was plenty of traffic, and for a while I was optimistic that it would reach critical mass. Alas, for whatever reasons, the community migrated back to TTF. In retrospect it doesn't appear that TC can flourish unless TTF dies. I find this sad, given that the TC proprietor listens to his users and has proven his willingness to implement the changes and features those users want -- something that will never happen here. It's a mystery to me why people prefer to congregate on this creaky old site when there are infinite possibilities at TC.

People won't go over there en mass until this place either breaks or is shut down. Simply asking or telling everyone to go over there would probably have a very limited and temporary effect, for a variety of reasons.

I am also surprised this site hasn't flat-lined! Every time it goes down, I think, "This is IT".

...Geezer

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:20 pm

Yea Todd, it's weird to watch the complaints about features and money continue here with a viable alternative up and running one bookmark away.

So I'm posting my new posts over there: mwpfoot, party of one. Hopefully the server can handle my post or two a month. I can always chime in here, but sheesh: broken HTML from last October asking for money on the homepage says it all.

Respectfully to Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This site is searchable, and always will be in some form. Search here, post there. What's the difference. We search, reference and link Contempora Corner, It's A Bear, Conn Loyalist, and others DAILY. Add this site to your list of references and give some life to the willing.

A motivational speaker I am not,

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 pm

Quote from: mwpfoot on Jan 12, 2018, 03:20PMYea Todd, it's weird to watch the complaints about features and money continue here with a viable alternative up and running one bookmark away.

So I'm posting my new posts over there: mwpfoot, party of one. Hopefully the server can handle my post or two a month. I can always chime in here, but sheesh: broken HTML from last October asking for money on the homepage says it all.

Respectfully to Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This site is searchable, and always will be in some form. Search here, post there. What's the difference. We search, reference and link Contempora Corner, It's A Bear, Conn Loyalist, and others DAILY. Add this site to your list of references and give some life to the willing.

A motivational speaker I am not,

I'm with you. I posted there this afternoon about a really, really great tool that can make everyone sound like a million bucks. To find out more...

...Geezer

ttf_Todd Jonz · Post by **ttf_Todd Jonz** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:07 pm

mwpfoot writes:

> I'm posting my new posts over there...Respectfully to
> Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the
> community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This
> site is searchable, and always will be in some form.
> Search here, post there.

That's the spirit! It's not the archival content that makes TTF a success, it's the community. A relatively small handful of regulars account for a significant portion of TTF traffic. If some of those users were to decide they'd rather ride around town in a shiny new Tesla rather than a dilapidated old Edsel, others would follow. Only the vehicle would be different; everyone would still be riding around with the same group of friends.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:08 am

Quote from: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 06:07PMmwpfoot writes:

> I'm posting my new posts over there...Respectfully to
> Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the
> community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This
> site is searchable, and always will be in some form.
> Search here, post there.

That's the spirit! It's not the archival content that makes TTF a success, it's the community. A relatively small handful of regulars account for a significant portion of TTF traffic. If some of those users were to decide they'd rather ride around town in a shiny new Tesla rather than a dilapidated old Edsel, others would follow. Only the vehicle would be different; everyone would still be riding around with the same group of friends.

Which is really likely (to me at least) the reason that this site continues to be fine. Even though it goes down, it isn't a mission critical piece of equipment. I check it when I'm procrastinating largely. I hardly ever start a new thread and when I do, it's in the classifieds. Maybe I need to get off my butt and start producing content too?

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:07 am

Back in the heady days of the Information Super Highway there would be competing forums for various topics.

Someone would get pissed off (or banned), go start another forum and some of the flock would follow him, vowing never to visit the old forum again. Computer graphics was like that.

Facebook seems to have taken a lot of the air out forums in general. TTF is a rare beehive of activity still.

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:44 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 13, 2018, 08:07AMSomeone would get pissed off (or banned), go start another forum and some of the flock would follow him, vowing never to visit the old forum again. Computer graphics was like that.
Trumpets still live their lives like this.

We trombones are loyal to a fault.

ttf_mwpfoot · Post by **ttf_mwpfoot** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:44 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Jan 13, 2018, 08:07AMSomeone would get pissed off (or banned), go start another forum and some of the flock would follow him, vowing never to visit the old forum again. Computer graphics was like that.
Trumpets still live their lives like this.

We trombones are loyal to a fault.