new bass trombone prices

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:01 am

A thread for discussion.

A recent locked thread discussed a one-off American made bass trombone. It appeared to be made for a customer for some $10K+ US.

If you go to alibaba.com and just google "jinbao bass trombone" you get the wholesale price of Chinese made bass trombones. This is not the manufactured price, this is the price for the wholesaler who then imports them, rebadges them and sells them on to the consumer on a global basis.

The price, to the wholesaler, of a double Thayer valved bass trombone, depending on number of units purchased per month is about $40US. You can buy as little as 1,200 of them a month to get the $40 cost to you, or you can order as many as 10,000 horns a month.

Or you could buy a rowboat, row to the dock in China and buy just one for a bit more, and then row it home yourself.

Lots of threads here on TTF, and on Tubenet the tuba website, about the great things some companies do to produce better quality Chinese brass. Now, I'll be the first to point out that, to get those Chinese horns to you you have to have a bricks and mortar shop somewhere other than China, lots of man-hours of labour by non-Chinese locals play-testing them to weed-out the dogs and offer the cream of the $40 horn crop to you.

Or the $20 crop, if parts of alibaba.com are to be read properly past the poor English. $20? Really?

$10,000US+ vs $20-80US.
Discuss.

Or, to put in another trombone content perspective, a faxx mouthpiece, or a double valved Thayer bass trombone for $25, same price.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:43 am

You can guarantee that the Faxx mouthpiece will work as you want it to (if YOU have chosen the right size); not sure you can say that about the double valved Thayer bass trombone.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_58mark · Post by **ttf_58mark** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:44 am

When you see prices like $20 on Alibaba, that's the starting point for a range on instruments that have the word "trombone" in the description.

Ordering directly from alibaba doesn't save that much more money that ordering from Mack brass or Jim Laabs, who get discounts for ordering in bulk

I have a friend that ordered a contrabass trombone directly from alibaba. He paid $1300, he he got it in 3 days. It would have been about $100 more if he had ordered from Jim Laabs, who doesn't have the best customer service, but has to be easier to deal with than trying to return something to China in case there is a problem

Go on Alibaba and request a price for one unit of the yamaha clone bass trombone. I bet it's going to be really close to $800. You might as well order the same thing from Mack for $850, and deal with a great human being like Tom Mcgrady

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:55 am

That American bass trombone was bought for 4400 or so, not 10K. Thein does charge more than 10k for some of their horns.

I think you'd have a hard time finding any trombone in China for 20 bucks, much less one with as many machined parts as a double axial bass.

I'm not sure there's much more to say other than wages and parts are slightly different costs in each country.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:18 am

The magic of economies of scale!

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:56 am

A pertinent quote from the West Wing

ALBIE DUNCAN
Trade is essential for human rights. Instead of isolating them we make them live by the same global trading rules as everyone else and gain 1.2 billion consumers for our products and strengthen the forces of reform.

C.J.
That's it. It's that simple.

ALBIE
No, it's not simple, it's incredibly complicated.
[...]
You know there's a decent chance I'm full of crap right?

C.J.
Sure.

ALBIE
"Free trade is essential for human rights"... the end of that sentence is "we hope because nothing else has worked."

C.J.
Okay, but I wouldn't say that tonight.

ALBIE
The President knows Chinese political prisoners are going to be sewing soccer balls with their teeth whether we sell them cheeseburgers or not, so let's sell them cheeseburgers.

C.J.
Nor, if it were I, would I say that.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:06 am

I believe posted emails from the locked thread showed that the original quote for the "Custom Classic Single Valve Bass Trombone" for $7804.89. I don't know if that was the eventual price paid, but that was what was shown on facebook.

Either way, price is what people are willing to pay. High-End custom brass instruments are expensive, no matter who you get them from. I will say that I've never paid anywhere near that much for a trombone, as I am not at a level where I need a trombone custom tailored to my playing.

Now, when dealing with custom boutique instruments, the law of diminishing returns definitely comes into play. There are also lots of "value added services" that only really affect the appearance of the horn, not functionality. These are the types of things that while nice, honestly don't add to the RESALE value of the horn. Sure an antique scratched finish looks great to some people, but most people aren't buying a horn to look at, they are buying it to play.

In this case it looks like there was someone who had a bunch of money to throw around, but really didn't know what they wanted in a trombone. I also play guitar, and this is something you see a lot in the guitar world as well, and honestly if guitar makers only made guitars for professionals, they wouldn't be around long. The hobby players tend to have more disposable income, and some apparently don't really have an issue sinking 7K into an instrument they don't even know if they will need or like. And they also spent a bunch on a restored Bach 42 that honestly doesn't look that great.

Regarding horns from china, the prices and quality are literally all over the place. There's no real way of telling if you get any added value for paying more, unless you go through another company that works with the manufacturer, and then the prices go up, because you are paying for that extra checking and quality. So, you get what you pay for in that respect.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:01 am

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 28, 2017, 08:06AMEither way, price is what people are willing to pay.

Yup, pretty much. Price of custom and/or modular trombones has little to do with actual quality. That's why I never got on the custom/modular bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, I think Shires, Edwards et al. make great instruments. I just don't see any reason to think that they are inherently better than conventional professional instruments the way that a good luthier's violins are systematically better than even the best factory-made instrument. If they were, no high level professional trombonist would be playing anything else! There are reasons why people still play Bach 42s and Conn 88Hs in major symphonies.

Pricing is in part a marketing strategy. It's a very basic marketing notion that high prices give the aura of quality, and that the same luxury product will sell MORE if it's priced higher. That is, up to a certain point that feels unreasonable to the average consumer of that product. I think yesterday's TTF/Facebook meltdown shows where that point in the (North-)American trombone world is - fortunately, still quite a bit lower than in most other instruments! (I'm so happy I don't play bassoon!)

If Steve Shires had priced his horns in the same range as conventional pro horns, would they have become so popular? I don't think so.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 28, 2017, 06:55AMThat American bass trombone was bought for 4400 or so, not 10K. Thein does charge more than 10k for some of their horns.

They do, and not that many people play them either. It's also a very different market, as German instrument making never got industrialized (at least not for professional instruments) and always remained an artisan tradition. All the German makers charge custom/luxury prices. Thein can afford pricing at 10K, because it's not much higher than other German makers they are competing against.

When you're competing against Bach and Conn, that can make a instrument that will rival yours at *only* 3-4K, it's much harder to make 9K sound reasonable.....

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:43 am

QuoteYup, pretty much. Price of custom and/or modular trombones has little to do with actual quality. That's why I never got on the custom/modular bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, I think Shires, Edwards et al. make great instruments. I just don't see any reason to think that they are inherently better than conventional professional instruments the way that a good luthier's violins are systematically better than even the best factory-made instrument. If they were, no high level professional trombonist would be playing anything else! There are reasons why people still play Bach 42s and Conn 88Hs in major symphonies.

To some extent I agree, but I don't think anybody is claiming that 100% of the difference is quality either. Actually, Edwards claims otherwise:

From Edwards's FAQ: (emphasis mine)
QuoteWhat is the difference between a Getzen Custom Series instrument and an Edwards?
Getzen is our parent company, which shares a lot with us in the manufacturing process. They offer a line of instruments named the Getzen Custom Series. This line of instruments is offered as a low-cost alternative to those who do not need the style of instrument Edwards provides. The quality of all materials and valves are identical.

The primary difference between the two is simply options. Not only do we offer literally 10,000 plus combinations of components, but the absolute ability to alter anything. These options are available to you either by phone or by personally visiting our shop where we will fit the instrument to your exact playing needs, by sound and feel.
In the case of luthier's violins vs. factory violins the difference, as far as I'm aware, is solely of quality. The modular trombone market is a bit different. While there is a quality difference (its not just a meme, ask any of the techs here who routinely work on new Conn-Selmer instruments) that alone is not the difference in price.

Shires and Rath aren't 100% apples to apples comparisons because they're also either assembled or made in China, but the Getzen horns are a reflection of the price differential when you compare a 'factory' horn with few options to another factory horn with few options.

The Getzen 3047AF is, on Hickeys, $3669.

A comparable instrument, the 42AF (with an Infinity rotor, not the Artisan series Bach though which is priced simialr to the 'botique makers) on Hickeys is $3779

That's about as apples to apples as I think you can get in the current market. In this case, the horn coming out of the Edwards/Getzen factory is actually cheaper.

Many people just want the option to switch components, either now or down the road. And while you can do that with any horn, buying into something that already has an ecosystem has its benefits. When the Tru-bore came out, people could sipmly purchase one and put it in their existing instruments without risking their current horn on a modification they might not know the result of. They can try others' tuning slides, bells, slides, etc. The network effect may be worth more to someone than the $1200 or so difference.

Finally, places like Edwards have to stock a showroom full of components with a varying degree of popularity. They might have a month worth of labor in the showroom floor for edge cases that someone might order but aren't as likely to.

That's all baked into the price, which is not alone a perception of a quality difference between Edwards and Getzen.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:46 am

I agree with everything you just said.

Quote from: Matt K on Jul 28, 2017, 09:43AMTo some extent I agree, but I don't think anybody is claiming that 100% of the difference is quality either.

I don't think anybody is claiming that either. I was merely pointing out that we haven't gotten to the point where artisans are able to make modern brass instruments that are so much better than good factory-made ones that they can make huge price differences seem reasonable, the way that string and woodwind instrument makers are able to do (or period brass instruments makers, for that matter!). Or else, the idea of a $9K BAC trombone wouldn't have sparked yesterday's fire, and nobody serious would be playing a Bach 42.

It's true that the modular concept itself holds a certain value that adds to the value of the physical instrument (although I do think its $ value is overrated and that the drawbacks of the concept don't seem to impact its value as much as its advantages do).

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:08 am

Ah, I see what you're saying then.

Fortunately, trombone does have an advantage in the sense that its design is actually pretty straightforward and there is a market for it. Can't say that about strings or woodwinds to the same degree. Or especially period instruments.

Create a modular sacbut and see how many people flock to it!

ttf_timbone · Post by **ttf_timbone** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:54 pm

Dear Mr. Bonesmarsh:

Please consider using sense and not cents. And you need to play the trombone, PARTICULARLY if it is made in China. What you really need to do is go to a competent shop that has a stock of trombones (not one) and a repair facility, become a customer and have a place to have your horn serviced when you need it. You are not buying a set of brake drums........I've seen far too many problems with solder, linkages, ect. and if you buy a cheapo you may not be able to get anybody to work on it. If anybody knows anything about First Act (wal mart brand) that came and left pretty fast.

In life there are certain basic people you need; a dentist, doctor, auto repair, instrument repair. There you are!

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:59 pm

I should add that Noah Gladstone works with a German maker Marcus Leuchter, and the Tenor they developed comes in at 4199, and the Bass at 6130. Quite "economical" for German made instruments, that are REALLY craftsman made in an old world shop.

Sure you have to wait, but it would be worth it.

As for the prices currently paid, if many will remember, Shires had some financial issues not so long ago, so even at the prices they have, it can be a struggle, particularly with the inability to find affordable financing rates. The prices have to be competitive, but they also have to be enough to cover costs and all the overhead, all in the face of ever rising raw material costs.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:48 pm

Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 28, 2017, 01:59PMall in the face of ever rising raw material costs.

I'm not sure raw material cost is a big factor. I would doubt there is more than a couple hundred dollars worth of brass in a trombone. Making complex parts (i.e. valves in particular) from scratch requires you to have a large-scale operation to be worth it. Outsourcing them is more expensive per piece than if you could make them and probably does drive the cost up a bit. But the real cost is paying the people actually making the horns, plus the administrative staff, plus marketing, plus all the other business-related things.

That's very likely to be why Markus Leuchter and some of the other German makers can make such good instruments for a reasonable price. They're not trying to run high-profile worldwide businesses with a large output and major name recognition, it's usually just a handful of people (in some cases, just a single person) making instruments, sometimes literally in the attic or the backyard shed...They can't make instruments as cheap as Conn-Selmer or other big companies that have factories. But they also don't need as big a margin as larger workshops on top of the cost of actually making the horns, because they don't have a big administrative and marketing department to pay for. More of what you pay actually goes into the horn.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:04 pm

timbone, I did own a 100% Chinese Eastman 432G. Good horn, never needed repair. I do have an amazing tech. He keeps my fleet of vintage Olds 1950s horns running as good as new.

Go to HomeDepot tomorrow. 12 foot lengths of copper pipe are about 50 cents per foot. A 12 foot length of Chinese brass pipe can't cost even a fraction of that.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:04 pm

timbone, I did own a 100% Chinese Eastman 432G. Good horn, never needed repair. I do have an amazing tech. He keeps my fleet of vintage Olds 1950s horns running as good as new.

Go to HomeDepot tomorrow. 12 foot lengths of copper pipe are about 50 cents per foot. A 12 foot length of Chinese brass pipe can't cost even a fraction of that.