One point not mentioned:
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 04, 2017, 03:07PMOne point not mentioned:
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
Edwards makes a single. They call it the 427.
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
Edwards makes a single. They call it the 427.
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I like my 70h for small orchestral 3rd part stuff. Also great for olddr bigband 4th book. Works for 40% of my quartet music. It's just lighter and less work and easier to get a good sound. Plus I can get away with a smaller mouthpiece and it meeses with my tenor chops less. Lots of reasons to love single valve bass.
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ttf_elmsandr
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 04, 2017, 03:07PMOne point not mentioned:
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
So, I was at Bachfest at the Bach plant a few weeks ago... I was surprised by the number of 50B singles I saw in process. I didn't inquire on their current model mix, but it was way more than .2%
Cheers,
Andy
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
So, I was at Bachfest at the Bach plant a few weeks ago... I was surprised by the number of 50B singles I saw in process. I didn't inquire on their current model mix, but it was way more than .2%
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: elmsandr on Aug 04, 2017, 06:52PMSo, I was at Bachfest at the Bach plant a few weeks ago... I was surprised by the number of 50B singles I saw in process. I didn't inquire on their current model mix, but it was way more than .2%
Cheers,
Andy
Yeah it doesn't look like it's too hard to get a choice of single basses from bach.
http://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/trombones/professional
Cheers,
Andy
Yeah it doesn't look like it's too hard to get a choice of single basses from bach.
http://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/trombones/professional
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
They do them in production runs to avoid having to tool up for an individual horn. Next run will be a schwack 'o 42Bs with open wraps....etc etc. etc. etc. etc
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ttf_slide advantage
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
George Roberts did pretty good on a single trigger bass bone.
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ttf_MrPillow
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
There are also new single-valve bass trombone offerings from JP Rath, Wessex Tubas, Yamaha, Amati, and a variety of other imported makers.
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ttf_JohnL
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: slide advantage on Aug 04, 2017, 08:54PMGeorge Roberts did pretty good on a single trigger bass bone.Not many of us have George's talent. It's one thing to hit a C below the staff. It's a whole 'nother thing to play it in the context of a ballad and have it be just another note rather than something you have to work at. EDIT: And sounds like you're working at it.
I've seen a fair number of people lured by the siren song of the single valve - but they almost always end up going back to the double for most of their playing. There's almost always at least one lick that you need it for.
I play a single at Bones West a lot of the time - but that's on fourth (lowest tenor). If I have to move over to bass, I'm pretty well worn out after a three-hour rehearsal - and that's playing the upper bass line on pieces with six parts.
I've seen a fair number of people lured by the siren song of the single valve - but they almost always end up going back to the double for most of their playing. There's almost always at least one lick that you need it for.
I play a single at Bones West a lot of the time - but that's on fourth (lowest tenor). If I have to move over to bass, I'm pretty well worn out after a three-hour rehearsal - and that's playing the upper bass line on pieces with six parts.
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ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I play a single trigger as my main horn. A conn 60h and sometimes a 70 h. I do it because of the reason Chris Stearn told. That said if I was a young student today aiming for a professional career I would get a double as main horn and a single as second. For me the single is fun to play, good to hold especially the 60h. It has a more responsive and livelier sound, it's more life in it. So its easier to make it sound good and reach out in a concert hall. Both orchestra, big bands and brass ensemble. Just try it folks and you get a surprise. I have a double, but in fact, it's not often I need it.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 04, 2017, 03:07PMOne point not mentioned:
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
That is right. My single bones are made 1954, 1980 and 1983. Most young bassplayers play only double bone. In 20 years from now I will probably not play if I am alive.
Mr Geroge Roberts was famous, Mr Basstrombone! Was he famous for playing singel? Not really, there was many basstrombonists playing singels then. He was famous for playing beautiful a tasty.
Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.
Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.
Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.
So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
That is right. My single bones are made 1954, 1980 and 1983. Most young bassplayers play only double bone. In 20 years from now I will probably not play if I am alive.
Mr Geroge Roberts was famous, Mr Basstrombone! Was he famous for playing singel? Not really, there was many basstrombonists playing singels then. He was famous for playing beautiful a tasty.
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ttf_Driving Park
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: JohnL on Aug 04, 2017, 09:29PMI've seen a fair number of people lured by the siren song of the single valve - but they almost always end up going back to the double for most of their player. There's almost always at least one lick that you need it for.
Although I have and use a double again, after spending a year using a stock 72H for everything (including licks that should really be played a double) I'll never go back to only having a double. With the kind of music people are writing for the instrument nowadays a double makes life a lot easier, but no double plays like a vintage single. It's a different instrument, useful for different things. I'd almost say it's the bass trombonist's equivalent of having a small and a large bore tenor, and I'm more than happy to bring both to a gig.
Plot twist: my double is also a 72H!
Although I have and use a double again, after spending a year using a stock 72H for everything (including licks that should really be played a double) I'll never go back to only having a double. With the kind of music people are writing for the instrument nowadays a double makes life a lot easier, but no double plays like a vintage single. It's a different instrument, useful for different things. I'd almost say it's the bass trombonist's equivalent of having a small and a large bore tenor, and I'm more than happy to bring both to a gig.
Plot twist: my double is also a 72H!
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ttf_slide advantage
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I don't play bass bone, but I'd say the appeal of a single valve one would be the lighter weight.
I have considered buying a 72H too.
I have considered buying a 72H too.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I own three bass trombones: 2 singles and a double. I mostly play the double every day for many reasons, but when a single is the right tool I love playing it.
I would not take an audition on a single. Why? Nobody else there will be dealing with that complication on the excerpts that are much easier on a double. I might practice switching between the double and a single and bringing both so that I can be playing the best tool for each job. But that's also an added complication.
Somebody asked who can afford 2 bass trombones...2 bass trombones is much less money than a quality bassoon, and we're still not even in the ballpark of truly great string instruments.
In the orchestral world it's now expected for the principal player to own and play an alto trombone very well. In my opinion, the 2nd and 3rd trombones should own and regularly play instruments to match that alto trombone well, and for me, that's a smaller bass with one valve.
I would not take an audition on a single. Why? Nobody else there will be dealing with that complication on the excerpts that are much easier on a double. I might practice switching between the double and a single and bringing both so that I can be playing the best tool for each job. But that's also an added complication.
Somebody asked who can afford 2 bass trombones...2 bass trombones is much less money than a quality bassoon, and we're still not even in the ballpark of truly great string instruments.
In the orchestral world it's now expected for the principal player to own and play an alto trombone very well. In my opinion, the 2nd and 3rd trombones should own and regularly play instruments to match that alto trombone well, and for me, that's a smaller bass with one valve.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Right on, Gabe.
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ttf_Alex
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Where do we see the future of the single valve bass ?
Modular manufacturers offering single sections, or will the like of Yamaha Bach Conn continue to offer it as part of their line ?
Gabe, it was I who mentioned the cost of owning 2 basses, but it comes from my perspective as an amatuer player.
We are lucky that even our top of the line handmade boutique instruments cost less than a flute head joint. My friends who play bass in my area are all on old kit. They mostly own only 1 bass and that is a double and between tham cover a range of different manufacturers. The work they do is mostly freelance and most of them have a job away from music. This makes owning 2 basses a different proposition. A single sitting in a cupboard becomes an uneccessary luxury.
I can't argue that a single bass isn't easier.
Do they sound better ? Only played one, so can't give a decent answer
I like that whilst it might make some passages technically harder, it also makes it easier on the thought process as you have less ways to play it. The relatively short time I spent on a single, it forced me to play what I saw. You can't worry about whats the best valve combination to use to get the 4th note in the phrase. You dont have that option. A single puts you in a musically simpler place and you just play.
Would I trade my new shiney Rath for a single ? No chance. Would I consider saving for a single valve section ? Yes. Would I use it ? I can't answer that.
Single valve sections supplied for modular instruments might be where the future of the single valve bass will end up. Otherwise, as I said earlier, I believe single valve basses will ultimately be used only by people who use them in their job. I dont see them at all in my smallish amatuer circle and know possibly 1 person locally who owns one.
Modular manufacturers offering single sections, or will the like of Yamaha Bach Conn continue to offer it as part of their line ?
Gabe, it was I who mentioned the cost of owning 2 basses, but it comes from my perspective as an amatuer player.
We are lucky that even our top of the line handmade boutique instruments cost less than a flute head joint. My friends who play bass in my area are all on old kit. They mostly own only 1 bass and that is a double and between tham cover a range of different manufacturers. The work they do is mostly freelance and most of them have a job away from music. This makes owning 2 basses a different proposition. A single sitting in a cupboard becomes an uneccessary luxury.
I can't argue that a single bass isn't easier.
Do they sound better ? Only played one, so can't give a decent answer
I like that whilst it might make some passages technically harder, it also makes it easier on the thought process as you have less ways to play it. The relatively short time I spent on a single, it forced me to play what I saw. You can't worry about whats the best valve combination to use to get the 4th note in the phrase. You dont have that option. A single puts you in a musically simpler place and you just play.
Would I trade my new shiney Rath for a single ? No chance. Would I consider saving for a single valve section ? Yes. Would I use it ? I can't answer that.
Single valve sections supplied for modular instruments might be where the future of the single valve bass will end up. Otherwise, as I said earlier, I believe single valve basses will ultimately be used only by people who use them in their job. I dont see them at all in my smallish amatuer circle and know possibly 1 person locally who owns one.
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ttf_elmsandr
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 04, 2017, 08:50PMThey do them in production runs to avoid having to tool up for an individual horn. Next run will be a schwack 'o 42Bs with open wraps....etc etc. etc. etc. etc
So, I also saw a lot of those... they had a pretty decent mix of everything flowing through. I'm a manufacturing person, and it didn't really look like batch production. Looked way more like batch of one, or small single racks mixed up.
What I'm saying is, they have a higher percentage of the market than we would probably expect. I would guess it is easily >10%, and I would guess what I saw was >20%. I wonder how many schools are buying singles pushing that up. Dunno. Would love to see some data on that if anybody has any.
Cheers,
Andy
So, I also saw a lot of those... they had a pretty decent mix of everything flowing through. I'm a manufacturing person, and it didn't really look like batch production. Looked way more like batch of one, or small single racks mixed up.
What I'm saying is, they have a higher percentage of the market than we would probably expect. I would guess it is easily >10%, and I would guess what I saw was >20%. I wonder how many schools are buying singles pushing that up. Dunno. Would love to see some data on that if anybody has any.
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_anonymous
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Who plays a single valve bass?
Someone who doesn't want numb fingers and hand cramps! I played an Olds P24G for a few years and it was torture... sore hand, sore shoulder, and with the weight and poor balance I ended up supporting some of the weight with my right hand, which messed up slide technique. Back to tenor for me!
Ten years later I chanced into a Conn 60h... what a difference! Better tone, Much more responsive, light and comfortable! No comparison! Just those two horns, but I'll never switch.
John Thompson
Someone who doesn't want numb fingers and hand cramps! I played an Olds P24G for a few years and it was torture... sore hand, sore shoulder, and with the weight and poor balance I ended up supporting some of the weight with my right hand, which messed up slide technique. Back to tenor for me!
Ten years later I chanced into a Conn 60h... what a difference! Better tone, Much more responsive, light and comfortable! No comparison! Just those two horns, but I'll never switch.
John Thompson
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ttf_Dukesboneman
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
My Yamaha 321 with the Instrument Innovations rest bar is incredibly comfortable to hold and play and for what I get called to do so far on Bass, a single is all I need
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ttf_donn
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Would it be fair to say, given
- [li]the enthusiasm for the sound and playing characteristics of single valve bass trombone, and[/li][li]the practical problems encountered when playing arrangements on one[/li][li]-> that arrangers could be doing better, in their bass trombone parts, if someone were to acquaint them with the situation?[/li]
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: donn on Aug 11, 2017, 09:06AMWould it be fair to say, given
Those would be the words of a soon to be unemployed bass trombonist. I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.
Composers, good composers write for what is possible on an instrument. Low B and C are easily played on a double valve horn, so composers use them in their music. It is the musician's job to pick the proper equipment that allows them to play the music before them.
- [li]the enthusiasm for the sound and playing characteristics of single valve bass trombone, and[/li][li]the practical problems encountered when playing arrangements on one[/li][li]-> that arrangers could be doing better, in their bass trombone parts, if someone were to acquaint them with the situation?[/li]
Those would be the words of a soon to be unemployed bass trombonist. I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.
Composers, good composers write for what is possible on an instrument. Low B and C are easily played on a double valve horn, so composers use them in their music. It is the musician's job to pick the proper equipment that allows them to play the music before them.
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ttf_donn
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
The arranger is either 1000 miles away from the session/recording/performance or 40 or 50 years of neglecting the single valve horn is to blame.
I recently sat in a session for young arrangers in a local college. Year 3 jazz class. Unless the modern arranger is a hard core nut addicted to classic arrangements, and gets a personal nuts and bolts hard schooling on WHAT works, they aren't going to have a clue about what WAS, much less what should be. Bad transpositions....bad arrangements-- bad disregard for even the basics of range and rhythm.
Somewhere there is some great video of Tony Bennett live in studio with the bass bone player blowing a Conn 72H pulled to bE. Did the arranger care what the bass bone player was doing? Nope/ The producer? Nope? Tony Bennett? Not a chance he cared.
Only one person will care== the player. What does every part of this thread just scream?-- you dance with the horn than brung ya! Unless you began on the horn 30 to 50 years ago, you're not likely to have ever touched a single valve horn.
I recently sat in a session for young arrangers in a local college. Year 3 jazz class. Unless the modern arranger is a hard core nut addicted to classic arrangements, and gets a personal nuts and bolts hard schooling on WHAT works, they aren't going to have a clue about what WAS, much less what should be. Bad transpositions....bad arrangements-- bad disregard for even the basics of range and rhythm.
Somewhere there is some great video of Tony Bennett live in studio with the bass bone player blowing a Conn 72H pulled to bE. Did the arranger care what the bass bone player was doing? Nope/ The producer? Nope? Tony Bennett? Not a chance he cared.
Only one person will care== the player. What does every part of this thread just scream?-- you dance with the horn than brung ya! Unless you began on the horn 30 to 50 years ago, you're not likely to have ever touched a single valve horn.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: donn on Aug 11, 2017, 05:21PMSo fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?
You are not talking about something that is unplayable, you are talking about something that might be difficult to play on a single. They will call in a guy who has a double and never call the single player again. If the part is truly unplayable, that is another story, but that is going to have to some kinda part.
You are not talking about something that is unplayable, you are talking about something that might be difficult to play on a single. They will call in a guy who has a double and never call the single player again. If the part is truly unplayable, that is another story, but that is going to have to some kinda part.
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ttf_Pre59
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Aug 11, 2017, 02:08PM
I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.
It was actually about timing between the harpist and the bass tbn.
Read all about it and a lot more besides here..
http://www.trombone-usa.com/roberts_george.htm
I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.
It was actually about timing between the harpist and the bass tbn.
Read all about it and a lot more besides here..
http://www.trombone-usa.com/roberts_george.htm
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
With modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 12, 2017, 08:06AMWith modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.
Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
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ttf_schlitzbeer
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: donn on Aug 11, 2017, 05:21PMSo fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?
Dont overlook the guy doing music prep, or the copyist. Theres known cases where the copyist changes, or alters stuff to their liking.
Dont overlook the guy doing music prep, or the copyist. Theres known cases where the copyist changes, or alters stuff to their liking.
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 12, 2017, 08:42AMOf course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.
And wireless electronic valves.
Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.
And wireless electronic valves.
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ttf_kbiggs
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 12, 2017, 09:08AMWell, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.
And wireless electronic valves.
Do you mean something like this? http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/options/neckpipes.php
Or perhaps the Yamaha 822 for a dependent to single set-up: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ybl-822g/index.html
I know several bass trombonists with removable bells who have had a single-valve section made that replaces the independent valve unit. One even had an extra crook in Eb made to play a low B and still have a chromatic instrument.
I know I haven't heard of everything, but I'm certain I haven't heard of wireless electronic valves... yet...
And wireless electronic valves.
Do you mean something like this? http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/options/neckpipes.php
Or perhaps the Yamaha 822 for a dependent to single set-up: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ybl-822g/index.html
I know several bass trombonists with removable bells who have had a single-valve section made that replaces the independent valve unit. One even had an extra crook in Eb made to play a low B and still have a chromatic instrument.
I know I haven't heard of everything, but I'm certain I haven't heard of wireless electronic valves... yet...
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I would bet it takes me less time to switch out an entire Shires valve section for another than it does to change over any of those detachable second valve options. It's just a matter of money.
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ttf_elmsandr
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 12, 2017, 09:08AMWell, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.
And wireless electronic valves.
I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section. Well, yeah, I guess... I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section. Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.
It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability. I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.
Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves. That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.
Cheers,
Andy
And wireless electronic valves.
I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section. Well, yeah, I guess... I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section. Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.
It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability. I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.
Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves. That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_hyperbolica
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: elmsandr on Aug 15, 2017, 06:00AMI inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section. Well, yeah, I guess... I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section. Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.
It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability. I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.
Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves. That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.
Cheers,
Andy
Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability. I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.
Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves. That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.
Cheers,
Andy
Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
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ttf_tbathras
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I just picked up a single valve to complete my backup Shires bass. It'll be a great option to have, but, my double indy set will still be my daily driver for the more advanced groups I'm in. It will be nice to have this single to take to the other groups where it's just 3rd tenor and low C/B are nearly unheard of.
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ttf_elmsandr
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: hyperbolica on Aug 15, 2017, 06:12AMNow you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements. Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.
I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary. That said, I prefer to play a single. That's why I own it. However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3. However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this? Not really. There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve. For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/. The valve cost is only about 50% of the section. And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn. The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago. The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly. So what is the measure of efficiency? The number of valves? The total cost? The total amount of brass required? The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale? The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular). For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.
I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years. It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out. If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves? That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it. I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out. Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player. I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen. Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.
(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this? Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)
Cheers,
Andy
Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements. Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.
I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary. That said, I prefer to play a single. That's why I own it. However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3. However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this? Not really. There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve. For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/. The valve cost is only about 50% of the section. And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn. The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago. The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly. So what is the measure of efficiency? The number of valves? The total cost? The total amount of brass required? The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale? The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular). For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.
I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years. It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out. If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves? That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it. I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out. Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player. I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen. Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.
(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this? Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I have a 2G on order for my 4B/F. I have the horn tuned to put low B in extended 7th b/c that is an important note in a lot of pop songs I want to play low. It seems doable enough, if I don't mind not having an F or C in 1st. I don't know what other approach to take. The low B's come around to quick to pull the E slide and they are way too important to blow false tones.
I guess the only other thing I could do would be to tune the horn conventionally and just play the low B's up an octave, or find another note that sounds plausible to replace them.
...Geezer
I guess the only other thing I could do would be to tune the horn conventionally and just play the low B's up an octave, or find another note that sounds plausible to replace them.
...Geezer
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ttf_hyperbolica
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: elmsandr on Aug 15, 2017, 08:43AMWhoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements. Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.
I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary. That said, I prefer to play a single. That's why I own it. However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3. However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this? Not really. There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve. For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/. The valve cost is only about 50% of the section. And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn. The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago. The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly. So what is the measure of efficiency? The number of valves? The total cost? The total amount of brass required? The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale? The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular). For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.
I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years. It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out. If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves? That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it. I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out. Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player. I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen. Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.
(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this? Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)
Cheers,
Andy
Just thinking out loud, really. No harm done.
I do product development, so the design part of this is very interesting to me. You could have V1, V2, neckpipe 1,2, and a replaceable tuning slide for the V1. That's 5 parts. Connections would be a quarter turn mechanism like a mini slide tenon, so they are rigid enough to support weight. V2 would have to have a lever that could be adjustable to place the valve either inline or stacked. So with those 5 subassemblies, you can have a straight horn, a single valve, a dependent or an independent. You could theoretically also add additional valves, either inline or stacked for additional possibilities.
The design is something you do once and amortize across each individual product. Assembly and manufacturing are applied directly to each. So a complex design that simplifies assembly is more efficient. The ability to mix valve types is also interesting.
I'm not saying that I would want a horn like this, or that anyone would want a horn like this. Or for that matter that the horn would play well once you got it (it almost certainly would weigh a good bit more than a conventional soldered horn). It may be that no one thinks like this because our current choices are pretty constrained. Technical problems can sometimes be overcome, but a lack of imagination is the one thing you just can't get past.
I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary. That said, I prefer to play a single. That's why I own it. However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3. However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this? Not really. There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve. For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/. The valve cost is only about 50% of the section. And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn. The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago. The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly. So what is the measure of efficiency? The number of valves? The total cost? The total amount of brass required? The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale? The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular). For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.
I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years. It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out. If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves? That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it. I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out. Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player. I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen. Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.
(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this? Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)
Cheers,
Andy
Just thinking out loud, really. No harm done.
I do product development, so the design part of this is very interesting to me. You could have V1, V2, neckpipe 1,2, and a replaceable tuning slide for the V1. That's 5 parts. Connections would be a quarter turn mechanism like a mini slide tenon, so they are rigid enough to support weight. V2 would have to have a lever that could be adjustable to place the valve either inline or stacked. So with those 5 subassemblies, you can have a straight horn, a single valve, a dependent or an independent. You could theoretically also add additional valves, either inline or stacked for additional possibilities.
The design is something you do once and amortize across each individual product. Assembly and manufacturing are applied directly to each. So a complex design that simplifies assembly is more efficient. The ability to mix valve types is also interesting.
I'm not saying that I would want a horn like this, or that anyone would want a horn like this. Or for that matter that the horn would play well once you got it (it almost certainly would weigh a good bit more than a conventional soldered horn). It may be that no one thinks like this because our current choices are pretty constrained. Technical problems can sometimes be overcome, but a lack of imagination is the one thing you just can't get past.
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ttf_Alex
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
This topic is fast turning into something I would expect to see on Monty Pythons Now For Something Completely Different.
Stop that, It's silly.
Stop that, It's silly.
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ttf_JohnL
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
A three-way convertible? I wouldn't expect to see much demand for that. Typically, one either prefers dependent or independent. Not much common ground in that discussion.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
For what it's worth... I'm not sure I would ever use any sort of Bartok bass as a full time single valve bass trombone.
As mentioned earlier in the thread... for the few cats who use a single frequently you usually have a couple different ways of tuning the F attachment. In tune low F, slightly flat bF, flatter bF, E and possibly even bE or Eb if you have any sort of additional attachments. A Bartok bass makes it a pain to swap between different tuning systems... totally doable but not something that is my cup of tea.
Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
As mentioned earlier in the thread... for the few cats who use a single frequently you usually have a couple different ways of tuning the F attachment. In tune low F, slightly flat bF, flatter bF, E and possibly even bE or Eb if you have any sort of additional attachments. A Bartok bass makes it a pain to swap between different tuning systems... totally doable but not something that is my cup of tea.
Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
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ttf_schlitzbeer
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 15, 2017, 01:40PM
Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
Couldnt agree with you more. Theres no way Im altering my Hirsbrunner for that and the added stress on the hand trying to use it.
Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
Couldnt agree with you more. Theres no way Im altering my Hirsbrunner for that and the added stress on the hand trying to use it.
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ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
I think if it's critical to your job to have instruments and equipment very tailored to a venue and repertoire then you just get what you need. If that's a small, light single bass and a double and a bass sackbutt and a heavy double bass and a large tenor then so be it. Even if it's just a nice single that you found on eBay for a steal and a great used Shires from the Forum. Just what works will work.
I would call myself a hobbyist and one band I'm in I can get away with playing a single effortlessly while the others I have a double just because it's that much easier.
I would call myself a hobbyist and one band I'm in I can get away with playing a single effortlessly while the others I have a double just because it's that much easier.
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ttf_anonymous
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
My college (GVSU) marched bass and for that I played a single valve yamaha bass bone, but i only preferred single valve for marching because it's awful to lug around that double trigger and it's hard on your hand.
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ttf_tbathras
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Aug 15, 2017, 10:42PMI would call myself a hobbyist and one band I'm in I can get away with playing a single effortlessly while the others I have a double just because it's that much easier.
Yup; this is the same boat I find myself in. If I had to have only one horn, it'd be my double, but it's fun to have a single, too.
Yup; this is the same boat I find myself in. If I had to have only one horn, it'd be my double, but it's fun to have a single, too.
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ttf_Driving Park
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 15, 2017, 01:40PMNote this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
I agree, but mainly because I have yet to find one that isn't ridiculously uncomfortable for the left hand. It would be nice to not have to deal with the ultra-sharp 6th partial, but it's nicer not destroying my hand. That hand gets enough of a workout holding bass trombones.
I agree, but mainly because I have yet to find one that isn't ridiculously uncomfortable for the left hand. It would be nice to not have to deal with the ultra-sharp 6th partial, but it's nicer not destroying my hand. That hand gets enough of a workout holding bass trombones.
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ttf_Driving Park
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Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Quote from: mr.deacon on Aug 15, 2017, 01:40PMNote this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
I agree, but mainly because I have yet to find one that isn't ridiculously uncomfortable for the left hand. It would be nice to not have to deal with the ultra-sharp 6th partial, but it's nicer not destroying my hand. That hand gets enough of a workout holding bass trombones.
I agree, but mainly because I have yet to find one that isn't ridiculously uncomfortable for the left hand. It would be nice to not have to deal with the ultra-sharp 6th partial, but it's nicer not destroying my hand. That hand gets enough of a workout holding bass trombones.