Markus Leuchter/Brass Ark Fuchs Collaboration

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:21 pm

So... I've always wanted to make a modern Fuchs that retains the qualities of the original but can stand up to the demands of what we have to do as professionals in 2017.

Markus Leuchter is a great craftsman and he makes phenomenal trombones, one at a time. We both also share a love of old Conn trombones. We decided to work on this project together over the past year.

Here is a small photo journal of our progress so far. Hope you enjoy it

If you want to know more in depth and not just look at photos, you can read about it here:
www.brassark.com/journal

You can learn more about Markus here:
http://www.markus-leuchter.de/

Fabricating a modern bell like the original:

All seamed red brass tubing:

Making the famous Fuchs "J" Bend:

Custom made rotor valves for this project. Modern Meinlschmidt rotor (nickel casing) for comparison:

Baby Fuchs and Grandfather Fuchs:

Our first prototype!:

Hope you guys are as excited about this project as I am!!!

ttf_Bach42BOS · Post by **ttf_Bach42BOS** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:10 pm

Wow, this is awesome!

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:24 pm

Are there plans to make this a production horn like the other BrassArk horns?

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:27 pm

Thats the hope

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:04 pm

Whoa! If it's anything like your Fuchs it'll be amazing.

Fabbing all new slides, I assume?

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:14 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Yesterday at 10:04 PMWhoa! If it's anything like your Fuchs it'll be amazing.

Fabbing all new slides, I assume?

The slide is something we're working on now. Trying to come up with an elegant solution for the TIS mechanism without adding much weight but still maintaining parallel tubes. I'll post pics when we settle on our design.

ttf_paulyg · Post by **ttf_paulyg** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:49 pm

Noah, did you guys think about having the cork barrels slide over the mouthpiece receiver/bell tenon, held in place by another stay? Seems like it would be similar to an opera-wheel style system, except it wouldn't affect the balance of the horn as much, or the alignment of the slide.

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:23 pm

right on Paul! Actually have come up with something very similar to that! If it works, should be extremely slick!

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:55 am

Beautiful!

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:24 am

WOW!!!!

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:20 am

::DROOL::

Will it have the nickel plate on the J-bend? It won't be necessary as a protective device given the open wrap of the F and D crooks, but the added weight in that area might have something to do with the unique sound of the Fuchs horns...

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:36 am

Good timing as I'm just thinking about a rotor for a Fuch's.... Is that the Meinlschmidt Open Flow rotor?

edit: Dangit. Just read the journal. I'm seeing the same issue in my search, only not trying to make something new.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:26 am

Quote from: kbiggs on Today at 06:20 AM::DROOL::

Will it have the nickel plate on the J-bend? It won't be necessary as a protective device given the open wrap of the F and D crooks, but the added weight in that area might have something to do with the unique sound of the Fuchs horns...

We will experiment with a yellow brass bow guard. The original has this as well. I agree, it is an important part of a J bend.

ttf_Fridge · Post by **ttf_Fridge** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:21 am

Wow! Just stunning!

Eddie Clark

ttf_slideorama · Post by **ttf_slideorama** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:49 am

Gulp.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:23 pm

I like this! Can I actually hold it by the bell brace like my King 7B?

Also the valve looks VERY compact. Nice.

ttf_sf105 · Post by **ttf_sf105** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:21 pm

I'll start arranging a mortgage now

The original Fuchs has quite a small valve which presumably contributes to the sound. Have you had a chance to experiment with different valve sizes?

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Today at 01:23 PMI like this! Can I actually hold it by the bell brace like my King 7B?

Also the valve looks VERY compact. Nice.

That will make it nice & solid for marching band!!!!

Yes I am ducking for cover!!!!
hehehe

Eric

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:05 pm

Wow, that looks great! I wish I was a good enough player to really appreciate what you and Markus Leuchter are creating. Thank you again for helping to keep the great designs of old alive! Too many have been lost already to corporate consolidation.

ttf_connman93 · Post by **ttf_connman93** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:36 pm

Man... just take my money now...

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:52 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 20, 2017, 01:23PMI like this! Can I actually hold it by the bell brace like my King 7B?

Also the valve looks VERY compact. Nice.

That's right Bruce, we wanted to keep the bell mounting position and the J bend proportions the same as on the original, which meant that this brace had to be lower and your thumb goes behind it. The good news is, the trigger geometry on our prototype works MUCH better than the King triggers of the 6B and 7B

it's very comfortable to hold and the strokes are short and smooth.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:17 am

What a nice idea !

A couple of questions if i may ;

Have You been thinking of a single F version with a " slide - in 2nd valve " ? ...after all , the original is single Bb /F

Have You considered to just drop the bell brace all together and mount the bell in the small loop sticking out of the 2nd valve ..
( loosing weight etc.. )
What are the bell diameters ?.. It seems on the smaller side , but the big bell taper may fool the eye.. ?
Have You discovered differences between an Elkhart 62H and the original Fuchs (You did not know existed )after examining the original before copying ? I have allways wondered about the pedigree of he 62H ... And also the puzzle about why the smaller taper belled 70H
Turned out to be the most popular version ..

I wish You the best of luck for the continuiation of this project !

Trond

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:43 am

Quote from: tbarh on Jul 23, 2017, 06:17AMWhat a nice idea !

A couple of questions if i may ;

Have You been thinking of a single F version with a " slide - in 2nd valve " ? ...after all , the original is single Bb /F

Have You considered to just drop the bell brace all together and mount the bell in the small loop sticking out of the 2nd valve ..
( loosing weight etc.. )
What are the bell diameters ?.. It seems on the smaller side , but the big bell taper may fool the eye.. ?
Have You discovered differences between an Elkhart 62H and the original Fuchs (You did not know existed )after examining the original before copying ? I have allways wondered about the pedigree of he 62H ... And also the puzzle about why the smaller taper belled 70H
Turned out to be the most popular version ..

I wish You the best of luck for the continuiation of this project !

Trond

We considered doing a removable slot in valve. I've owned many over the years and I always found myself using it with both valves. It's a much more stable build to make a fixed double valve setup (no flimsy linkages, extra parts soldered onto the horn, etc) so we made the decision to make it a solid double valve. We explored a similar idea to the Doug Yeo Yamaha setup as well, decided it strayed too far from the idea to keep it a vintage inspired instrument.

It's already extremely lightweight. The original Fuchs uses very thin material and we've duplicated that to the best of our capacity with this project.

The 62H uses many of the same tapers as the Fuchs but it's much different in fabrication techniques and materials and that's one reason why it's different than the original design. The 62H has a lot of the sane character, if you're a fan of that model our "Baby Fuchs" is going to be up your alley.

The original has a 9 1/4" bell, we've replicated that.

Thanks for the well wishes and nice compliments

ttf_Duffle · Post by **ttf_Duffle** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:13 pm

Has Chris (Blast) seen this?.........

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:22 pm

Quote from: Duffle on Jul 24, 2017, 01:13PMHas Chris (Blast) seen this?.........

Yes I have. I have a Fuchs so I don't need a copy.

Chris Stearn

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:20 am

A little more....
Firstly, I greatly admire Noah and his efforts to bring better products to the trombone world. If you go to his site you will read that this is a not planned to be an exact copy.
What do you copy anyway ? My Fuchs (1925) has a 9 1/2" bell and the bell section weighs slightly more than my 60H bell section. The valve is small on the outside but the passages in the rotor core are larger than the 60H... and I very much doubt, knowing some of it's history, that it has been messed with.
The Fuchs and the 60H bell sections could have been made on the same mandrels and play in a similar way, but the slides are different... materials and leadpipe will be quite different. Also, Noah's Fuchs has had the bell/slide connection changed to screw connect. The original friction fit makes that area much longer.
Add to that the different positions of brace work between bell and valves and many things have changed.
Will this trombone play like a Fuchs ? I doubt it.
Will this trombone be a really great new trombone with the best heritage ? Every chance !

Chris Stearn

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:42 am

Exactly Chris! You summed it up perfectly. You can't make an exact copy of something that's 100 years old but you can create something new that pays homage to the old, get it as close as you can and see what you create. So far, all of our testing has been very encouraging.

The rotor on my original is indeed small on the outside but big on the inside. We've recreated that, as its such an integral part of the instrument.

I think it's safe to say that Conn, for all intents and purposes, was a custom shop for trombones (especially symphony sized horns) back then. Many of the instruments seem to have been made to order, so while they may share similarities, I've yet to see two of the exact same larger bore trombones (not that it doesn't exist). That's all part of the fun from this golden era.

This project is fun, that's why we're doing it. It is exciting to create a piece of playable artwork that incorporates all the traits and character that we all admire on these vintage classics. I can't wait to take one to work!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:38 am

Interesting that two of these Fuchs rotors are larger through the cores. sf105... What about yours ?
Chris Stearn

ttf_sf105 · Post by **ttf_sf105** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:45 am

Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 05:38 AMInteresting that two of these Fuchs rotors are larger through the cores. sf105... What about yours ?
Chris Stearn

I don't know. Bring your calipers next time you're down

S

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:28 am

Some more pics from the prototype build. We decided to make the entire outer slide from seamed red brass with yellow brass oversleeves and ferrules. You'll also see our idea for the TIS mechanism in these photos. Hope you enjoy

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:27 am

Looks great, Noah ! The '34 70H i used to own had a very heavy slide with the heavy " opera wheel " tuning system.. Will this be a heavy slide like mine or are You shooting for a lightweight overall horn ?

Trond

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:17 pm

Why yellow brass outers and ferrules? Does it make any difference besides the look not using nickel?

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:56 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jul 28, 2017, 10:17PMWhy yellow brass outers and ferrules? Does it make any difference besides the look not using nickel?
Well, that was the construction of the original, so, part of the design here. (At least it was on the one that I have)

Going more broadly, I find a little bit of nickel goes a long way, but can't imagine much of a difference coming from a ferrule or two.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:58 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jul 28, 2017, 10:17PMWhy yellow brass outers and ferrules? Does it make any difference besides the look not using nickel?

According to what Noah posted, yellow brass oversleeves and ferrules, not outers. The outer slide tubes are red brass. Material always makes a difference, even the small amount of yellow brass being used for the oversleeves and ferrules will sound/feel different than nickel, if they had chosen to use that.

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:52 am

Here are some more photos of the finished outer slide and the TIS tuning mechanism

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:59 am

That looks like a pretty tetchy thing to adjust. Have you considered the system used in the Holton Paul Whiteman? Mine is so light it doesn't need a counterweight!

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:19 am

I meant outer sleeves, sorry. I can just tell the difference, sonically, of sleeves V none. Of course between slide tube materials, but I might not feel difference of sleeve material. Personally.

Anyway I love the tuning mechanism. Looks super slick! Is it smooth enough to operate so you can pull out or push in the slide tuning slide ( is what I call it ) while just holding the horn and playing Bb?

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:36 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Yesterday at 09:59 AMThat looks like a pretty tetchy thing to adjust. Have you considered the system used in the Holton Paul Whiteman? Mine is so light it doesn't need a counterweight!

works extremely well and adds very little weight. Also keeps the slide tubes parallel.

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:37 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Yesterday at 10:19 AMI meant outer sleeves, sorry. I can just tell the difference, sonically, of sleeves V none. Of course between slide tube materials, but I might not feel difference of sleeve material. Personally.

Anyway I love the tuning mechanism. Looks super slick! Is it smooth enough to operate so you can pull out or push in the slide tuning slide ( is what I call it ) while just holding the horn and playing Bb?

Moves very easily, you can adjust quickly. I do recommend pulling straight from the crook, but because of the design, you can't really mess up the alignment

and very little weight added

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:07 pm

Quote from: Slipmo on Yesterday at 09:52 AMHere are some more photos of the finished outer slide and the TIS tuning mechanism

That looks really great, Noah.

ttf_The Sheriff · Post by **ttf_The Sheriff** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:07 pm

Quote from: Slipmo on Yesterday at 09:52 AMHere are some more photos of the finished outer slide and the TIS tuning mechanism

That looks really great, Noah.