Effect of leadpipe sizes.

[NotATrumpet]

I wasn't sure where I should post this, but here goes......

I have a 0.525" bore with interchangeable leadpipes. Not only that, the leadpipes available can be large or small reciever sized. I'm comparing two leadpipes at the moment, both the same, apart from reciever size, and have had unexpected results. Large shank mouthpieces in the appropriate pipe sound different from small shank equivalents in the small reciever pipe. All mouthpieces and leadpipes have the same specs. Also a small shank mouthpiece with an adaptor in the large reciever leadpipe plays differently, and not in a nice way ( well, that's my opinion ). I'm inclined to think that the small reciever leadpipe in the 0.525" is better matched to the trombone than the large reciever leadpipe. Does any one have similar experiences and/or can explain why and how this is?

PS. The trombone does sound huge with a 5G or 4G type mouthpiece in the large reciever leadpipe but slightly harder to "control".

[WGWTR180]

I think you've answered this question. Stick with what's best.

[Matt K]

All mouthpieces and leadpipes have the same specs.

I bet they don't! If for no other reason then they really can't, the entrance to where the mouthpiece sits has to be bigger on the large shank than the small shank. Depending on the mouthpiece, the backbore and likely throat are different too. The somewhat rare instances where this is not the case are things like the 6.5AL, where the "L" indicates a particular size and shape of the backbore, which results in a very thick wall. For all intents and purposes, a large shank 6.5AL is a small shank 6.5AL with an adapter, the adapter is actually just manufactured into the thickness of the shank!

Large shank and small shank definitely feel and sound different, even when the pipe is nominally the "same." It's actually a pretty huge difference in my experience. I much prefer small shank to large shank in medium bores. Especially after Doug made me a few shanks specifically for the 525/547 bore size. I also tend to play mouthpieces that are slightly shallower. I currently use a D+/4.5 with my 525/547 and I can't fathom wanting a large shank setup now.

I have dabbled fairly extensively with large shank pipes in 525 horns. If I went that route now, I would probably would have Doug try to make me a shank specific for the bore size. I find them to be very close to a large bore with the large shank adapter, but with some quirks. Given how much I like the smaller setup and how broad I can still get my sound, I don't see much of a point anymore, personally.

I have found that a fairly "large" or "open" pipe seems to work better for me. In other words, if I like a Shires 2 small shank, I wouldn't like a Shires 2 large shank. I would want to go MT2.5 or MT3. I've also had success with Conn X pipe in the past. The X pipe works on almost every model because it actually extends the length of the instrument like, a quarter of an inch and is otherwise - as best I can tell - a small shank pipe in the venturi, soldered to a nickel mouthpiece receiver. But you'd need to have a tech file the threads and replace it or similar. I had a tech do that for me and... I can't remember what I did with that pipe but I liked it on the Shires threads I had it on.

FWIW, I have yet to find a 525 trombone that a Conn 52H pipe doesn't work on. They are relatively inexpensive too which is nice.

[Posaunus]

You've already discovered this. Large-shank mouthpieces/lead pipes do not work so well on a 0.525" bore slide. Just not a good match.

Stick with a small-shank leadpipe (and an appropriate mouthpiece) for this slide. If you don't like the pipe (or mouthpiece) you have, many others are available.

[Gfunk]

Large-shank mouthpieces/lead pipes do not work so well on a 0.525" bore slide.

I made a thread similar to this at some point after really trying to get a large shank .525 leadpipe to work. I ended up much happier and found the sound I was looking for when I went to a small shank pipe and Doug Elliot F4 shank. I was looking in the wrong place. There’s a reason every good medium bore takes small shank.

Sorry I don’t have a technical answer, but know my discovery mirrored yours.

[brassmedic]

Think about what's going on inside the leadpipe. The equipment may say it's the same specs, but it's not. There is a chamber between where the mouthpiece ends and the narrowest part of the leadpipe (the venturi), usually called the "gap", which can be longer or shorter depending how the leadpipe is constructed, but will always be wider if it's a large shank. Here's a crude drawing: I wouldn't be surprised at all if the bottom configuration caused response or intonation problems.

leadpipes.jpg

[Kbiggs]

I borrowed a friend’s 36 a while ago. He’d set it up to have screw-in leadpipes. The horn had tenor and bass shank leadpipes. There was no question that the tenor mouthpieces with a tenor leadpipe responded superior to a bass shank mouthpieces with a bass shank leadpipe.

Even with a comparatively large rim/deep cup mouthpiece (about a 4G size), the tenor mouthpiece/leadpipe just worked better. Bass shank mouthpieces sounded tubby, and the response and flexibility were off. The scale/intonation was also different—the octaves were generally wide, for example.

But I liked playing a small horn enough that I looked for and found a good used Corporation 36 a few weeks later. I’m leaving it as is.

[Posaunus]

Here's a crude drawing: I wouldn't be surprised at all if the bottom configuration caused response or intonation problems.

I believe it does!

[Slidennis]

I have a 0.525" bore with interchangeable leadpipes. Not only that, the leadpipes available can be large or small reciever sized. I'm comparing two leadpipes at the moment, both the same, apart from reciever size, and have had unexpected results. Large shank mouthpieces in the appropriate pipe sound different from small shank equivalents in the small reciever pipe. All mouthpieces and leadpipes have the same specs. Also a small shank mouthpiece with an adaptor in the large reciever leadpipe plays differently, and not in a nice way ( well, that's my opinion ). I'm inclined to think that the small reciever leadpipe in the 0.525" is better matched to the trombone than the large reciever leadpipe. Does any one have similar experiences and/or can explain why and how this is?

Just as you said... Same experience with my SL2525 Conn slide. And I just don't like any of the supplied leadpipes that came with it... a Bach 36 leadpipe works better for me.

But as an aside, I just don't understand why nobody ever made a small shank leadpipe to sit in a large bore slide... could make the trombone a bit more conical, and versatile if you play jazz on your only one large bore equipment...

[Matt K]

I do recall a Chinese made horn doing just that. Actually, memory serving it was remarkably long and almost made it a 525/547 slide because of the proportion of the slide that was basically leadpipe at that point. It wasn’t good but that’s almost certainly because of poor construction, not because it’s a bad idea per se. I absolutely love my 525/547 Getzen. An otherwise large bore horn with a Venturi and backbore designed for it that is small shank is a combination I could totally see working