Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn?

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:17 pm

The recent post by Chipola on Wessex asking about interest in a trombonium got me thinking...

What's the difference between a trombonium and a tenor horn, specifically the German style tenor horn as offered by Gebr. Alexander:

http://www.gebr-alexander.de/en/instruments/tenorhorns-baritones/bb-tenor-horn-mod-146/
http://www.gebr-alexander.de/en/instruments/tenorhorns-baritones/bb-tenor-horn-mod-145/

Specs (which never tell the whole story) reflect that these tenor horns are similar to medium and large bore tenor trombones. I'm assuming, however, that the conical taper after the valve cluster is more rapid than similarly-sized trombones. Perhaps the rate of taper would be similar to that of a cornet when compared to a trumpet... But then, where does that leave the baritone, the British style instrument (not the American baritone horn, which is really a euphonium)...?

Is a tenor horn just a valve trombone by another name?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:19 pm

There is no way that the instrument in the links you sent sounds just like a valve bone. Tenor horns usually sound TINY.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:39 pm

A local British style brass band will have a guest artist clinician for a week this summer from England. A friend in the band is a french horn, alto horn ( in Eb ) doubler. The guest is a tenorhorn specialist. Not alto horn or baritone horn.

Even she couldn't explain it to me. She'll find out when the guest arrives.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:40 pm

I played for a number of years in a very good European style concert band that had tenor horns and euphoniums. They sounded distinctly different. I would not have called the sound tiny, but it was more conical. This band also carried a full trumpet section and a full fluegelhorn section. The differences were similar.

When we played the big band stuff, we reduced the sections (these were paid gigs.) I always struggled to balance two trumpets, two fluegels, and a euph for a long gig.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:18 pm

I bought a Mirafone Tenor Horn [bass trumpet ? -- the catalogue listed it as a tenor horn]new in about 1959 from Roger Bobo who was Mirafone's first "rep" here in the States. I still have it. I always thought it was more like a bass flugelhorn because of its conical proportions. I did use it in a British Brass Band group we assembled when at The Eastman School of Music and I played the baritone parts on it. The leader's father was a Major in The Salvation Army and had access to all of the fabulous charts they used in their contests --- Eric Ball and Erich Leidzden [?] come to mind as two of the arranger/composers. Then again --- John Marcellus used it as a bass trumpet in the National Symphony Orchestra's Wagner recording with Antal Dorati conducting. An interesting instrument with nowhere to call home ---- . Whenever I had a dance gig I'd take it along just for grins and the leader would always ask me to play it instead of trombone. The "Trombonium" I believe, was an instrument manufactured by the King company that had a short production life. Kai Winding and J.J. Johnson used "Tromboniums" on an album which I still have. The main tune on that album being "My Little Girl" from "Carousel". It sounded great on those bastardized valve trombones !! What IS a tenor horn ? Your guess is as good as mine ! Cheers to all !! Bob

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:09 pm

Quote from: kbiggs on Jul 13, 2017, 07:17PMIs a tenor horn just a valve trombone by another name?Definitely not. Just look at the bell throat.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:56 am

The euphonium is a tenor tuba in Bb.

The British baritone is a tenor saxhorn in Bb.

QED.

Stewbones

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:26 am

Quote from: Stewbones43 on Jul 14, 2017, 01:56AMThe euphonium is a tenor tuba in Bb.

The British baritone is a tenor saxhorn in Bb.

QED.

Stewbones

Wouldn't it be more accurate to call the euphonium the baritone tuba? I think Europe does it that way.

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:27 am

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on Jul 13, 2017, 08:18PMAn interesting instrument with nowhere to call home ---- .

[...]

What IS a tenor horn ? Your guess is as good as mine !

This reminds me of the quote by Gustav Mahler who, by the way, called for a tenor horn, not a euphonium, for the opening solo to his 7th Symphony:

I am thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans, and as a Jew throughout the world. Everywhere an intruder, never welcomed.

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:26 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Jul 13, 2017, 07:39PMA local British style brass band will have a guest artist clinician for a week this summer from England. A friend in the band is a french horn, alto horn ( in Eb ) doubler. The guest is a tenorhorn specialist. Not alto horn or baritone horn.

Even she couldn't explain it to me. She'll find out when the guest arrives.

Eh, when the british say tenor horn, they mean an Eb tenor horn, could also be called an Eb alto horn.

There is also a Bb tenor horn. Which, depending on who is discussing it, may or may not be the same as a Bb baritone.

And we thought tenorbass trombone nomenclature was bad...

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:30 am

Quote from: elmsandr on Jul 14, 2017, 07:26AMEh, when the british say tenor horn, they mean an Eb tenor horn, could also be called an Eb alto horn.

There is also a Bb tenor horn. Which, depending on who is discussing it, may or may not be the same as a Bb baritone.

And we thought tenorbass trombone nomenclature was bad...

Yeah. I think the Scandinavians have it right. IIRC, they call the Eb an alto, the baritone a tenor horn, and the euphonium a baritone horn. The "baritone" is smaller bore and has a brighter sound, so this all makes sense.

When I was a kid there was only a baritone, and if somebody called it a euphonium we thought he was a pretentious jerk.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:08 am

In American brass bands, there was three Bb upright horns; Bb tenor, Bb baritone, and Bb bass. You see this carried forward into military band music from the mid-to-late 19th and early 20th centuries - there are parts for Bb tenor (1st and 2nd), Bb baritone, and Bb bass. The tenor and bass parts were eventually replaced by 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone.

Cerveny makes three sizes of oval uprights in Bb; they have tenors (.520"/13.2 mm bore), baritones (.598" bore/15.2 mm), and "Kaiser" baritones (.638"/16.2 mm). Miraphone has a similar lineup.

Anyone familiar enough with history of British brass bands to know if they ever used a similar setup?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:41 am

British brass band call the Eb horn Tenor horn. The medium size Bb horn is a baritone. The large Bb horn is an euphonium, the BBb bass is one octave lower so let this out of the discousion.

In Germany the tenor horn is a Bb horn, so is the baryton but with a larger bore.

In Sweden the tenor is in Bb when playing brass band and Eb when playing wind orchestra, in the military band the baryton is the same instrument as the brass band euphonium, not same as the brass band baritone.

Conplicated? Well it can be worse, so let us stop there.

Trombonium is an uppright valve trombone, sounds like a valve trombonem, not like tenor,baritone,baryton or euphonium.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:28 am

John's description was also true of the military band of the US Civil War era. There the instruments were saxhorns, played over the shoulder. Three types of 9-foot Bb instruments were called Tenor, Baritone, and Bass. The difference was the bore. The low voice in this band was an Eb tuba (also over the shoulder).

Here is a band with their saxhorns:

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:11 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 14, 2017, 08:41AMBritish brass band call the Eb horn Tenor horn. The medium size Bb horn is a baritone. The large Bb horn is an euphonium, the BBb bass is one octave lower so let this out of the discousion.With the exception of "re-enactment" bands that try to recreate the American brass bands of the 19th and early 20th century, almost all brass bands here in the US follow the British pattern - Eb tenor, Bb baritone, Bb euphonium, Eb bass, and BBb bass.

I've often thought it would be nice to have a vintage American Bb tenor horn, but they don't come on the market very often, and those that do are usually in poor condition.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:43 am

Having played an actual Bb Bass Horn, you would find it comparable to a modern 3 valve Euphonium. The Bb Baritone was about a medium bore trombone and the tenor horn was a small bore trombone in size.

ttf_Mark LaFratta · Post by **ttf_Mark LaFratta** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:31 pm

Quote from: kbiggs on Jul 14, 2017, 06:27AMThis reminds me of the quote by Gustav Mahler who, by the way, called for a tenor horn, not a euphonium, for the opening solo to his 7th Symphony:

I am thrice homeless, as a native of Bohemia in Austria, as an Austrian among Germans, and as a Jew throughout the world. Everywhere an intruder, never welcomed.

As I recall, right at the beginning when the "tenor horn" solo starts the part says in German something like "with a large tone" which seems odd to say for a true German tenor horn. A German barytone (euphonium) would give you the large tone.
MJL

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/v/d1LHOCjXZVI

Tenor horn? But it kinda also looks like that small yamaha baritone (the expensive one)

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:54 pm

People play the part on euphonium nowdays (modern performance practice) because that's what various people play it on. (Why did many principal players play everything on tenor trombones up until about 25-30 years ago? Because they could, nobody played alto, and playing music on the alto trombone was seen as "cheating.") It could be that euphonium players are asked to play the solo because they are the most familiar with a valved instrument in that register, and are likely to be more familiar with modern orchestral performance practice. Also, very few people here in the States know what a tenor horn is, let alone have access to one.

Just because people play the part on euphonium doesn't mean it should be played on euphonum, only that it can. Besides, the original part is clearly marked "Tenorhorn in B," not euphonium. Mahler knew what he was talking about.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:51 pm

In regards to the OP's first post...

Like others have said to know what a Tenor horn is you need to either specify the Germans or the British. 90% of the time when you say Tenor horn this side of the Atlantic people are going to think British Tenor horn which is an Alto horn. While German Tenor horns are in the same pitch as British Baritones they are not the same thing.

American Baritones, Oval Euphoniums and anything that claims to be a "Baritone" or "Euphonium" that isn't based of the classic Boosey and Hawkes/Besson designs is not a Baritone or Euphonium and are something else.

The answer to your original question is no, they are not the same. The closest thing to a upright valve trombone would be those Conn 90G contraptions which used literal 8H bells and had a consistent bore all the way through.

Quote from: kbiggs on Jul 14, 2017, 07:54PMJust because people play the part on euphonium doesn't mean it should be played on euphonum, only that it can. Besides, the original part is clearly marked "Tenorhorn in B," not euphonium. Mahler knew what he was talking about.
Yes and no... that's like saying because Bizet wrote for Ophicleide that means his pieces have to be played with Ophicleide. Sure you can do that in an orchestra using period instruments but not in any sort of modern ensemble. I had a professor say that after Bizet first heard a Tuba he said all of his pieces should be played with Tuba instead of Ophicleide.

The Euphonium at the time Mahler wrote the solo was still in development and was not the instrument we know today. The compensating system Euphonium wasn't even invented until 1874 and the bore size, bell and other dimensions continued to change until the mid 20th century. A American Baritone is probably closer to what Mahler knew as a Euphonium during the time he composed his symphony.

It's entirely possible Mahler had never heard a proper "Euphonium" before and wrote it for German Tenor horn because that's what the German military bands were using at the time. What if Mahler heard the piece on a modern Euphonium? Would he have like it more?

In modern times the rule of thumb is pretty much if an America asks for Baritone or Euphonium they mean Euphonium and when a British composer specifies Baritone or Euphonium (Like Holst and Percy Grainger sometimes do) they want it for the instrument it is written for. Germans are a bit of a crap shoot... but it's usually safe to use a Euphonium no matter what they ask for.

Don't give Mahler too much credit

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:22 pm

I don¨t think Mahler ever heard an euphonium.
The trombone and tuba in that time did not have the sound of modern trombones used to today when playing Mahler, the euphonium is probably the instrument that does the job best in the modern orchestra, and it is most often played by a trombone player. At least in Europe.

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:25 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 14, 2017, 09:22PMI don¨t think Mahler ever heard an euphonium.
The trombone and tuba in that time did not have the sound of modern trombones used to today when playing Mahler, the euphonium is probably the instrument that does the job best in the modern orchestra, and it is most often played by a trombone player. At least in Europe.

This.^

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 14, 2017, 08:51PMIt's entirely possible Mahler had never heard a proper "Euphonium" before and wrote it for German Tenor horn because that's what the German military bands were using at the time. What if Mahler heard the piece on a modern Euphonium? Would he have like it more?

In modern times the rule of thumb is pretty much if an America asks for Baritone or Euphonium they mean Euphonium and when a British composer specifies Baritone or Euphonium (Like Holst and Percy Grainger sometimes do) they want it for the instrument it is written for. Germans are a bit of a crap shoot... but it's usually safe to use a Euphonium no matter what they ask for.

Don't give Mahler too much credit

Certainly Mahler never heard a modern euphonium. Neither did he hear Jascha Heifitz playing in a style that originated... well, with Jascha Heifitz. It's a very post-Romantic style, but we hear string players playing in that style for any kind of music.

I give Mahler the credit he is owed. He knew exactly what he was writing. His performance instructions are very precise. As a musician, I can trust his instructions to produce his music the way he wanted it to sound. Yes, he revised things. And yes, perhaps, if he heard a modern euphonium, he might have preferred the euphonium to the sound of the tenorhorn.

But he didn't. Mahler never heard the modern euphonium. He used what was available to create the music he heard in his head. People play the 7th Symphony tenorhorn solo on euphonium because that's what is convenient--it's what people use in modern orchestras.

It would be nice to hear the solo on a tenorhorn with a symphony like that of Mahler's time. Would it sound different? Yes, I think it would, very much so. Ever listened to a recording of Berlioz's Symphony Fantastique on period instruments? There are at least two recordings I know of: John Eliot Gardner and L'Orchestre Revelutionaire et Romantique, and Roger Norrington and his group. Listen to the ophicleides and French bassoons in the 5th movement. It's an unearthly--literally a fantastic--sound, which I have no doubt was exactly what Berlioz intended.

The opening of Mahler's 7th would no doubt sound different if played as intended.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:36 pm

I agree with you, I just personally don't feel the need for 100% correctness on instrument use outside of period instrument ensembles or specific performances using period instruments.

Like my early statement about using an Ophicleide out of context with period instruments, hearing the Symphony 7 solo on a period German tenor horn would probably sound pretty wacky out of context with period German brass and woodwinds. I'm sure you're right though that it would sound amazing in the correct ensemble.

The Bydlo solo is another good example of Euphonium usage. Bydlo sounds fantastic in the hands of a good Euphonium player. The solo was originally written for Tuba but most Tuba players sound like garbage playing the solo on their giant CC or F Tubas, or even an Eb Tuba. That haunting sound that cuts through the ensemble as the moment builds is just soooooooo much easier to do on Euphonium. Which is why most of the time you hear the solo it will be on a Euphonium.

You are right that the Euphonium is used for convince in todays orchestras but is that really a bad thing? Honestly I think a lot of these solos sound pretty darn good on Euphonium and it just wouldn't sound right on any of the other saxhorn related cousins in modern orchestras.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:45 pm

Bydlo was written expecting a French Tuba in C (a whole step ABOVE a Euphonium). A rare bird (although I think Wessex is making one). Here's a picture of one:

ttf_Trombocholik · Post by **ttf_Trombocholik** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:29 am

I believe that Mahler wrote for the German style oval tenor (or oval baritone), because he was from Austria.
In Austria, Germany and Russia euphonium is not applied so far, because the sound oval tenor or baritone a lot better than the sound of the euphonium or British (or American) baritone.
Mahler was a genius. He first realized the immense opportunity the oval tenor and entered it into a Symphony orchestra. Unfortunately he was the only one. If other composers would have been the same genius, we would have a lot more job now.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:14 am

The Bydlo solo is best played on euphonium if there is no French Bass tuba around, because the euphonium is that what come closest in sound. Not the F tube and certainly not the CC tuba.

Mahler 7. In an orchestra playing on period instruments the German tenor horn, as it was in Mahlers time, is the right instrument. (actually it is not the same instrument today) In the modern orchestra that instrument would be out of place.

Years ago in the 60th I played sackbut in a concert when the orchestra used modern instruments, but the trombones was using sackbuts. For some odd reason. Did it work? Have a guess.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 am

What's joe on in that video though? It looks like a small Bb baritone. Certainly not a euph.

ttf_Anorak · Post by **ttf_Anorak** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:15 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 15, 2017, 07:09AMWhat's joe on in that video though? It looks like a small Bb baritone. Certainly not a euph.

It's a Yamaha Neo Baritone Horn. A new take on the traditional compensated three valve horn in B flat. They have a 13.2mm through to 14mm bore and take a small shank mouthpiece.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:04 pm

Quote from: Anorak on Jul 15, 2017, 12:15PMIt's a Yamaha Neo Baritone Horn. A new take on the traditional compensated three valve horn in B flat. They have a 13.2mm through to 14mm bore and take a small shank mouthpiece.So roughly the same size as what Mahler would have called a Bb tenor horn at the time when he composed the work.

For point of reference, the Conn Bb tenor horns from the early 20th century were #4 bore (.531"/13.5 mm).

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 15, 2017, 01:14AMMahler 7. In an orchestra playing on period instruments the German tenor horn, as it was in Mahlers time, is the right instrument. (actually it is not the same instrument today) In the modern orchestra that instrument would be out of place.How did tenor horns in Mahler's day vary from, say, a Cerveny CTH-521-3?

I'm afraid we're getting tangled up in nomenclature here.

ttf_discus nerd · Post by **ttf_discus nerd** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:46 pm

USA-Baritone/Euphonium (Bb) Trombonium (Bb)
UK-Tenor(Eb) Baritone (Bb) Euphonium (Bb)
Germany-Tenor(Bb)

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:54 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 15, 2017, 06:04PMSo roughly the same size as what Mahler would have called a Bb tenor horn at the time when he composed the work.

...

I'm afraid we're getting tangled up in nomenclature here.
British Baritone is not the same as a German Tenor Horn. Sure both might have a similar bore size but they are completely different instruments with very different sounds.

ttf_Trombocholik · Post by **ttf_Trombocholik** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 pm

Quote from: discus nerd on Jul 15, 2017, 06:46PMUSA-Baritone/Euphonium (Bb) Trombonium (Bb)
UK-Tenor(Eb) Baritone (Bb) Euphonium (Bb)
Germany-Tenor(Bb)

Yes.
But you forgot the German style oval Alto (Eb) and the best of all these - the German stylle oval Baritone (Bb).

Oval style alto (Eb)=Tuba style alto (tenor).
Oval style tenor (Bb) 13,5 mm bore=Tuba style British or American baritone.
Oval style baritone (Bb) 15-16 mm bore = Tuba style British or American euphonium.

Oval tenor and oval baritone have medium shank receivers.

ttf_Trombocholik · Post by **ttf_Trombocholik** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 15, 2017, 07:54PMBritish Baritone is not the same as a German Tenor Horn. Sure both might have a similar bore size but they are completely different instruments with very different sounds.

Absolutely right.
Oval tenor and oval baritone sounds much better than British baritone and euphonium (IMHO).
In Russia in brass bands oval tenor and oval baritone have of great importance, like a cello in a Symphony orchestra.
Mr. Werden wrote about oval baritones:"Regarding "soaring" from the baritones, I think that's where those oval horns really shine. Not because they are oval, but I think they are more conical and open than a British baritone. It is much easier to get that soaring sound when your air can move through so freely. So I'm guessing the writing within these compositions and arrangements is geared to take advantage of those particular instruments. Whatever the reason, the result is really neat and uplifting!'

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread.php/20641-Simeon-Tchernetsky-(1881-1950)-genius-of-Soviet-march#.WOk-XaNn0b1

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:34 pm

Quote from: kbiggs on Jul 14, 2017, 07:54PMPeople play the part on euphonium nowdays (modern performance practice) because that's what various people play it on. (Why did many principal players play everything on tenor trombones up until about 25-30 years ago? Because they could, nobody played alto, and playing music on the alto trombone was seen as "cheating.") It could be that euphonium players are asked to play the solo because they are the most familiar with a valved instrument in that register, and are likely to be more familiar with modern orchestral performance practice. Also, very few people here in the States know what a tenor horn is, let alone have access to one.

Just because people play the part on euphonium doesn't mean it should be played on euphonum, only that it can. Besides, the original part is clearly marked "Tenorhorn in B," not euphonium. Mahler knew what he was talking about.

Joe Alessi recently played the Mahler 7 solo on british-style baritone (a Yamaha YBH-831S) -- the video's on YouTube. It sounded great and I appreciate his mindfulness that a German-Style Bb tenorhorn is a much smaller instrument than euphonium, even if it isn't exactly the same sound. The German tenorhorn is a little bigger than British baritone and a lot larger than the old american Bb tenorhorns that died out at the beginning of the 20th century, but the British-style baritone isn't completely out of context, especially with the right mouthpiece. The line between German bariton and tenorhorn is blurred somewhat, it's mostly about bore and bell size however there is a big variation and even the big German oval bariton (which is equivalent to our euphoniums) are a little smaller and more focused sounding than the big British-style euphoniums.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:51 pm

Quote from: bbocaner on Today at 03:34 PMJoe Alessi recently played the Mahler 7 solo on british-style baritone (a Yamaha YBH-831S) -- the video's on YouTube. It sounded great and I appreciate his mindfulness that a German-Style Bb tenorhorn is a much smaller instrument than euphonium, even if it isn't exactly the same sound.I think the idea is that, while it doesn't sound that much like an oval tenorhorn, the British baritone is a great deal closer than a euphonium would be...

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:47 pm

good grief!!

I'll stick to my limited American knowledge.

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:33 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 17, 2017, 03:51PMI think the idea is that, while it doesn't sound that much like an oval tenorhorn, the British baritone is a great deal closer than a euphonium would be...

I don't know much about the german horns but maybe he preferred the compensating tuning feature on the Yamaha ?

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:32 pm

When I entered the Eastman School of Music as a Freshman in 1956, my major instrument was the "euphonium" even though the instrument I owned at the time was a Conn 20-I. I later acquired a Besson 4 valve compensating "euphonium" [don't know the model #] which was a far darker, richer sound. I knew of the British distinction between the American baritone horn and the British euphonium from those wonderful British Brass Band recordings of the 1950's, but it was no big deal. When & where in the Hell did all of these instruments with subtly different characteristics come from ? Oval baritones, tenor horns, barytons [which I always thought was a stringed instrument] etc. etc !!! Let's throw in Wagner Tubas just for giggles ------ . It seems to me that the player of the instrument has as much influence over the resultant sound of any of these "niche" instruments as the particular instrument of your choice has as part of its inherent characteristics. A trombonist playing a euphonium, a euphonium player playing a trombone, a tenor horn player playing a baritone [British, German or American ?] ----- where will the list of variables end ?? Wow !! This is making my brain hurt !! Cheers to all ----- Bob

ttf_Trombocholik · Post by **ttf_Trombocholik** » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on Jul 17, 2017, 08:32PMWhen I entered the Eastman School of Music as a Freshman in 1956, my major instrument was the "euphonium" even though the instrument I owned at the time was a Conn 20-I.
A trombonist playing a euphonium, a euphonium player playing a trombone, a tenor horn player playing a baritone [British, German or American ?] ----- where will the list of variables end ?? Wow !! This is making my brain hurt !! Cheers to all ----- Bob

Unfortunately in Russia they do not teach altohorn, tenorhorn and baritone (euphonium) in colleges and conservatories. Altohorn is dead now. On oval tenors and baritones, children are taught in music schools, then switched to a trombone. In this video, oval baritones are played by trombonists...
The Defence Ministry Band of the USSR on TV in the 1970's.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_fXCUCEviU

Enjoy the sound of oval baritones.

ttf_Driving Park · Post by **ttf_Driving Park** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:14 am

For all saying that using a German oval tenor horn would not work in a modern orchestra, you can watch and hear an example of this in the Berlin Phil Digital Concert Hall. They play works on the instruments they were written for for the most part, and the tenor horn does not sound at all out of place. It's a little odd to compare the oval tenor to an ophicleide, being as the oval tenor is still very much in use. It's a solo part anyway.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:51 am

One issue about oval baritones is that the Chinese made ones seem to be uniformly awful. I've never tried playing a good make -- it might be quite different.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:13 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 19, 2017, 11:51AMOne issue about oval baritones is that the Chinese made ones seem to be uniformly awful. I've never tried playing a good make -- it might be quite different.Played next to a guy who had a vintage Miraphone Kaiser baritone for a while. Intonation was, ummmm, interesting. Not sure how much was him and how much was the horn.

ttf_Trombocholik · Post by **ttf_Trombocholik** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:52 pm

Yes, all Chinese oval baritones are awful. Can Wessex be better?
In Soviet times and now we played oval baritones manufactured in the GDR (B&S), Czechoslovakia (Amati) and the USSR (Leningrad). These are good baritones.
If you do not like Miraphone, can try Cherveni or St. Petersburg.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:01 pm

One thing I have learned playing baritone/euphonium as a trombone player is that you have to do a lot of lipping of notes. Push the button and blow is for beginners.

Wonder if any of the better instruments have "kickers" for the tuning slide to adjust intonation?

ttf_DaveBb · Post by **ttf_DaveBb** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:24 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 19, 2017, 02:01PMWonder if any of the better instruments have "kickers" for the tuning slide to adjust intonation?

The current Besson Prestige has no kicker but is compensating and has a 4th valve to help with tuning...
http://www.besson.com/en/instruments/baritones/prestige-baritone/

For comparison, the top range Besson Euphonium has all the bells and whistles...
http://www.besson.com/en/instruments/euphoniums/euphonium-prestige-2052/

The lower range baritones from both Besson and Yamaha aren't compensating.

Interestingly Yamaha's Neo (top of the range) doesn't have a 4th valve whereas their next level down YBH-621S does have one. Yamaha's blurb says that they designed the Neo from the bottom up and put a lot of effort into tweaking the sound and player response...
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/baritones/ybh-831/develop.html#product-tabs

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:27 pm

We were talking here about German style oval baritone horns.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:29 pm

Quote from: DaveBb on Jul 19, 2017, 02:24PMThe current Besson Prestige has no kicker but is compensating and has a 4th valve to help with tuning...
http://www.besson.com/en/instruments/baritones/prestige-baritone/

For comparison, the top range Besson Euphonium has all the bells and whistles...
http://www.besson.com/en/instruments/euphoniums/euphonium-prestige-2052/

The lower range baritones from both Besson and Yamaha aren't compensating.

Interestingly Yamaha's Neo (top of the range) doesn't have a 4th valve whereas their next level down YBH-621S does have one. Yamaha's blurb says that they designed the Neo from the bottom up and put a lot of effort into tweaking the sound and player response...
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/baritones/ybh-831/develop.html#product-tabs

Baritone players often don't use a fourth valve because the top horns are already compensating. 1+2+3 is already in tune so what's the need for a 4th valve? Not sure why they don't have a kicker... but imo you don't really need one anyways so ehhh.

It's like bass trombone players sticking with single valve or dependant horns instead of using an Indy horn. Sure they could use the more advance piece of technology but they're stuck in their ways and prefer the older style of instrument.

ttf_donn · Post by **ttf_donn** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:44 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 19, 2017, 02:01PMWonder if any of the better instruments have "kickers" for the tuning slide to adjust intonation?

Cerveny's CEP 731-4RTXSPL model has a 1st valve trigger.

Generally they lack any such thing, though. And those instruments are used as tubas, in places. Not sure exactly where - Austria, Bavaria, thereabouts, for schuhplattler (sp) folk dance music for example.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:00 am

Quote from: Trombocholik on Jul 19, 2017, 12:52PMYes, all Chinese oval baritones are awful. Can Wessex be better?

I'm a huge fan of what Wessex is doing with their original designs and those models in which they've done major improvements to the original design, but I don't believe the ovalform baritones fall into that category.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:11 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 19, 2017, 02:01PMOne thing I have learned playing baritone/euphonium as a trombone player is that you have to do a lot of lipping of notes. Push the button and blow is for beginners.

Wonder if any of the better instruments have "kickers" for the tuning slide to adjust intonation?

As a trombone player, that's exactly why I like having a tuning trigger on my valved instruments. Blow right through the middle of the note and adjust the tubing rather than lipping. I find it to have many advantages.

I have a fairly recent miraphone kaiserbariton and the intonation is excellent, far better than a new euphonium from Besson for example. Except, of course, when you wander into the register where the compensating system really helps.

Yes, many of the german-made ovalform instruments can be ordered with a tuning trigger, including K&H, miraphone, Lechner, Rudolf Meinl.