embouchure issues

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:48 am

Hi all.

I will start by saying that I will hopefully be getting a lesson or two with Doug Elliot soon and I know that will help immensely, given what others have said, but was in the mood to record myself today and thought I would put tis out there in the meantime! Hopefully you can see these vids ok!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOIar1tMi5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybJtEFVUESo

I am an experienced player with a brass band in the UK - started on smaller instruments and, as often happens, ended up playing 2nd trombone and stayed on it for more than 20 years now! Have had no formal education/lessons, all self taught, and I have always had what I feel is a 'poor' embouchure that hinders, rather than helps! My range is nowhere near what it should be - my top limit is 'E' above the staff (treble clef) but this is a mere squeak, not usable at all! Notes above the staff have always been a struggle (though have actually got a little easier in the last year or two when I moved my lips down into the mpiece a little and to the left slightly). I also have what I consider to be poor stamina - not just over say, an hour but actually within phrases - if I have a high note to play at the end of say, a 20 second non stop passage, I will struggle - it feels so different to the start of the passage.

In terms of my physical set up I have a jaw that isn't totally lined up, I have to move my bottom jaw to the side slightly to actually have it lined up (I don't do this when I play, I think!) You may also see from the vids attached that I have quite a fleshy top lip - I don't know if all this means I should approach set up in a certain way? I have included a video of tounging and slurring from bottom to top and of how my lip looks after a low note. When I take the mp off and move nothing I have a terrible buzz! It seems I do not buzz how I actually play and I know sometimes this doesn't matter - I have heard that lots of great players can't buzz! I am also pretty sure excessive pressure is playing it's part. When I look at my embouchure I know it looks really odd - just years of bad habits and lack of expert guidance!

Anyway have a look and any suggestions welcome

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:53 am

You need to see Doug.

That's the clearest video of a low placement embouchure I think I've ever seen.

IMO only a specialist like Doug is going to be able to help with that one. Even a lot of good teachers have probably never seen that.

ttf_dham944 · Post by **ttf_dham944** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:58 am

Thanks for having a look! When you say low placement, you mean the mouthpiece is low? It actually used to be more prominent on the smaller instruments many years ago, as if my lip was resting over the rim.

Yes, looking forward to working with Doug - hoping he can help, lord knows I need it!

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:10 am

I'm not qualified to diagnose, but that looks like it must be an upstream embouchure, something we talk about here but is not common and that needs some special care. From what I understand from Doug and Dave's writings it can work well if done properly.

Dave Wilken is an upstreamer too. I am not, I am one of the more common downstream high placement embouchures.

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:18 am

I am by no means a chop expert and by far the best thing you could do is get with Doug, so you're on the right track there. The one thing I noticed though from the first video is that your bottom lip seems to be excessively rolled out for the F you were playing. I would try rolling your bottom in more over your lower teeth so the buzz is concentrated further forward on the bottom lip toward where the fleshy red part ends. If you have a cut off mp or rim you'll be able to see this a lot better. Best of luck to you.

ttf_dham944 · Post by **ttf_dham944** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:30 am

Quote from: cigmar on Jul 10, 2017, 10:18AMI am by no means a chop expert and by far the best thing you could do is get with Doug, so you're on the right track there. The one thing I noticed though from the first video is that your bottom lip seems to be excessively rolled out for the F you were playing. I would try rolling your bottom in more over your lower teeth so the buzz is concentrated further forward on the bottom lip toward where the fleshy red part ends. If you have a cut off mp or rim you'll be able to see this a lot better. Best of luck to you.

Thanks - is this something I should be doing just with buzzing first?

ttf_cigmar · Post by **ttf_cigmar** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:39 am

Quote from: dham944 on Jul 10, 2017, 10:30AMThanks - is this something I should be doing just with buzzing first?

You'll of course be able to see the difference when just buzzing. But more importantly, I believe, is to listen for the difference. I believe you should be able to hear more core and stability in your sound. Give it a try. I'd be interested in learning what you find.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:47 am

It's sounds to me as if the OP has the basis of a good tone. But he looks frustrated in his vids. Making a change in the embouchure can be
a very tricky and slippery slope to negotiate. Been there! Best of luck to you!

...Geezer

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:51 am

I will get back to you soon. I see a lot that seems right for you, and a few things that can be tweaked. I agree that you're probably rolled out too far and that creates too big of an aperture. See you soon.

And the post right before this is inexcusable.

ttf_dham944 · Post by **ttf_dham944** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 am

Thanks for the advice everyone, certainly food for thought! I'm a teacher on Summer break so I guess there are no excuses to get stuck in! Doug - thanks again - should I just be trying to roll that bottom lip in with some buzzing in the meantime? Maybe practice in my current setup really wont help, until you have a look?

ttf_Wilktone · Post by **ttf_Wilktone** » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:29 pm

Hi, "dham944".

I saw your message on my blog and did respond over there too. My thoughts mirror Doug's, once your embouchure formation firmed up I think you'll find your range and endurance will improve.

Although I share your embouchure type, Doug was the teacher that got my chops straightened out in the first place. My guess is that Doug would work with you on free buzzing correctly (as an exercise only). Even though upstream players like us will free buzz differently than how we play, I've found that there's something about low placement players that free buzzing does for us that simply playing a lot doesn't do as well.

Let me know if I can help in any way or share some of my experience.

Dave

ttf_dham944 · Post by **ttf_dham944** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Thanks Dave, for your reply here and on your site. Trying that setting thing of having the lips firm before I set, think its something Doug had mentioned before. Looking forward to seeing what buzzing properly can do for me!

ttf_dham944 · Post by **ttf_dham944** » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Thanks Dave, for your reply here and on your site. Trying that setting thing of having the lips firm before I set, think its something Doug had mentioned before. Looking forward to seeing what buzzing properly can do for me!