What's happening to today's mouthpieces?

[John]

Hello.

Very recently, I bought a Denis Wick 5BL with gold plating. The mouthpiece was completely new, but there are a couple of differences compared to an older 5BL that I borrowed.

Clarification: the older 5BL is not one of the oldest wicks either, in fact, it is still one of the "new" ones (particularly the old one is from 2016-17 and the new one is from 2024)

First: the newer mouthpiece is a little smaller, but not going out of size 5.

And second (the one that worries me the most): the finish is extremely delicate, I already knew that the gold mouthpieces are much more delicate than the silver ones, but the finish of the older 5BL was good, you could tell that it was a thicker gold plating for its durability and even for its color, the old one is more "orange", while the new one is more ''yellow'', almost like a ''polished brass'' color. I realized this because after just one week of use, the gold plating started to disappear, more specifically in the RIM area, And I noticed that underneath the gold plating, there is a copper plating. It's been a week since the gold plating started to disappear, and the copper plating is also starting to disappear, revealing a color very similar to what the gold plating was when it was at 100%, I'm pretty sure what's underneath the copper plating is the brass of the mouthpiece. With all of this going on, I'm confused and disappointed in the quality control of mouthpiece manufacturing companies.

This is also happening with Bach; the mouthpieces are not being manufactured as before. A friend (the same one who lent me the Old 5BL) tried a Bach 5GS from the 2000s, possibly, but he bought that exact same new mouthpiece in 2023, and he didn't like it as much as the old 5GS; he found it more uncomfortable, so he sold it.

With all this in mind, I'm not sure what to do with my 5BL. I don't know if it's worth investing in another finish, either silver or gold or if I should sell it.

I have that doubt because the mouthpiece has not even been taken out of the box for a month. for now, I'm looking for a mouthpiece that will last, like a Bach 5G from the corporation era, a Schilke 51C4, or an old Denis Wick 5BL, something that won't take long to adapt to.

Can you help me decide? Thanks.

[WilliamLang]

Get a long island brass mouthpiece. Made by hand from someone that cares about this stuff

[cubetrom]

I never really got along with gold plating so might not be the best person to judge, but I have a DW4B gold plated cornet mouthpiece that looks horrendous, like it hasn't been properly polished. The flugelhorn mouthpiece I have from the same time is fine so I think it is a bit of a lottery.

I've found Yamaha mouthpieces to be very good in terms of wear. I have several well-played recent Yamaha trumpet and cornet mouthpieces and aside from a little tarnish and fine scratches they still look fine. Also have a 30 odd year old trombone mouthpiece that's a bit dull but otherwise in great condition. I've just ordered a new Yamaha Nils Landgren so we shall see how that holds up.

Out of the choices you've given I would choose the 5G. I really liked my c. 2005 one and sort of regret letting it go even though I don't play big horns now. My experience with the 5BL was good but I found it a bit fuzzy sometimes and I've never played the 51C4.

[HornboneandVocals]

Got a Pickett mouthpiece, had to custom order a gold plated rim. I’ve got a full beard and use my Pickett exclusively, and there’s next to no wear on the rim.

I’m always the kind of person to look at non mass-produced goods so I’d always recommend mpcs like Doug Elliot bob reeves Long Island brass and the like.

[Matt K]

Wick pieces went through a period where something was of about how they were plated. I can’t remember what. If your piece isn’t new, that might have something to do with it.

[BGuttman]

Wick's plating problem was around 30 years ago. This is clearly newer.

[LR109]

I have four 4als and they're all slightly different sizes, must admit that's sort of what I like about them, they have a bit of character.

If the plating has worn off as you describe then surely you're well within rights to ask Wick to sort it out as a failing of the product lasting a reasonable length of time?

[hornbuilder]

Your headline is entirely misleading. This issue is happening with "one" mouthpiece from "one" brand. Please don't use sensational headers that seemingly throw other companies unfairly under the bus.

Mouthpiece makers evolve how they do things, to explain the issue your friend had with Bach. They previously used form tools to shape their mouthpieces, but have moved to CNC machining. The process of switching manufacturing methods most certainly could have changed some details.

[chromebone]

I have a very early NOS Wick 5Al that is much different than the newer one I have. Rim diameter is a little smaller, cup slightly shallower and outer dimensions slightly different. It’s easily the best Wick 5Al have ever played. Like Bach did starting in the 70’s, their mouthpieces started to creep upwards in size.

[JohnL]

I realized this because after just one week of use, the gold plating started to disappear, more specifically in the RIM area, And I noticed that underneath the gold plating, there is a copper plating. It's been a week since the gold plating started to disappear, and the copper plating is also starting to disappear, revealing a color very similar to what the gold plating was when it was at 100%, I'm pretty sure what's underneath the copper plating is the brass of the mouthpiece.

I'm not an expert, but plating gold over copper over brass seems an odd choice. You'd normally want a barrier layer of another metal when plating gold over copper or a copper alloy.

[Bonearzt]

I realized this because after just one week of use, the gold plating started to disappear, more specifically in the RIM area, And I noticed that underneath the gold plating, there is a copper plating. It's been a week since the gold plating started to disappear, and the copper plating is also starting to disappear, revealing a color very similar to what the gold plating was when it was at 100%, I'm pretty sure what's underneath the copper plating is the brass of the mouthpiece.

I'm not an expert, but plating gold over copper over brass seems an odd choice. You'd normally want a barrier layer of another metal when plating gold over copper or a copper alloy.

Usually silver is used as a base layer, I don't believe gold bonds well with raw brass or copper.

[pfrancis]

Get a long island brass mouthpiece. Made by hand from someone that cares about this stuff

Made by hand on what…. A traditional lathe? I don’t think so. I suspect all of LIBrass mouthpieces are programmed into a cnc lathe. Not saying *no* handwork is involved but definitely not a “made by hand” mouthpiece - I suspect makers like those are fewer and fewer in the world.

[WilliamLang]

Jeff from LIBrass and Doug Elliot both make fantastic, long lasting mouthpieces, with a great eye for detail and quality control. In my own opinion, using machinery doesn't exclude something from being bespoke or made by hand. Anyways, stuff made from the bigger conglomerates these days does feel like it's more hit or miss than in the past.

[John]

Hello everyone again.

I come to clarify a few things that I overlooked in my previous post.

I've noticed that the post I originally made is a bit obvious (not to say dumb), but I made this post to know what's wrong with my 5BL (and know if something similar happened to anyone). The second reason is to know why mouthpiece manufacturers make changes without warning. I know they do it to meet the growing demand, but in my opinion, it would be better if they do not change something good, or at least let us know when they make a change.

As for the "replacement" mouthpiece, I decided on a Bach 5G or 5GS (from the "Corp." era).

It wasn't my intention to say bad things about Vincent Bach or Denis Wick (at no time did I say that they are bad mouthpieces they are still good since they work they are good, only things have changed and now not everyone likes them), I just asked "what is happening with today's mouthpieces, and why don't they make them as they used to?''.

Anyway, I think I'll finally do this.

I will buy a mouthpiece that is not very expensive, after all this mouthpiece will be a ''Temporary replacement''. With this done, I will save money to re-finish the 5BL, really both the old and new 5BLs are good mouthpieces, they are comfortable for me and work well, I just need a mouthpiece that has its finish in good condition (I developed an allergic reaction to mouthpieces without silver or gold plating, so this issue of the finish is very important to me, and I need the finish on the mouthpiece to last as long as possible).

[LIBrassCo]

Since I see it came up, all of our cutting is indeed CNC, and all our finish work is by hand with the mouthpiece still in the machine, so that it maintains concentricity.

[pfrancis]

Jeff from LIBrass and Doug Elliot both make fantastic, long lasting mouthpieces, with a great eye for detail and quality control. In my own opinion, using machinery doesn't exclude something from being bespoke or made by hand. Anyways, stuff made from the bigger conglomerates these days does feel like it's more hit or miss than in the past.

I agree on all points. I mean to suggest that the term “hand made” means different things at different times mostly.

When people used to make a custom mouthpiece (before the proliferation of cnc machines) someone made alterations (by hand or with hand controls). Of course this led to more eccentricities but this is where some of the “magic” lives, in the inconsistency. I believe I have heard Doug say something to the effect of “I can make a mouthpiece faster by hand, but more consistently with the cnc machine”. Programming is needed in production of today, and I believe it leads to a better result for all.

That said, unless one is a named player with a specific model, nothing about them is bespoke. Makers can offer enough options for one to select from a lineup what parts they like best. For most of us it reduces to: Customizable or modular, not custom or bespoke.

[tbdana]

Another "they don't make 'em like they used to" post. You know, back when all those great, wonderful "old" things were made that you revere, people were saying about them that "they don't make 'em like they used to," too. It seems everything used to be made better. Everything. And yet, somehow things continue to get better.

[Bach5G]

Slide lubes are better than ever. And practice mutes.

[atopper333]

Is it that programming is needed in production today, or is it wanted? Yes, some things were made ‘better’ back in the day, some things are made “better” today. I would say it is wanted in production as the companies that employ it make a good deal of money and are still selling a good amount of products

I wonder how much consistency has been a priority in the digital age as opposed to prior to the advent of the ability to instantly get a feedback response on how gear works for x, y, and z player. We then use this to make a decision as to whether or not we want to purchase the same item. X company is able to produce a certain mouthpiece which is generally consistent, then the reviews on the mouthpiece would also be consistent as they will be on a piece that is fundamentally, albeit fractionally different…

Now let’s bring in the closer…marketing.

If I can market you a couple dozen different mouthpieces and get you to try them through reviews and endorsements than I can make a lot of money. Further more, like most industries, if I can get you to focus on modular components I can get even more product out the door as I can offer for you to try it in varying combinations until you find what you would like.

How to negate this? Well, some of the horn manufacturers offer fittings to get you dialed in…custom mouthpiece makers, to my understanding, do a similar thing.

We will always have to deal with economies of scale, and this will guide the specific individual consumer to consider a massed produced item verse a custom one. No real right answer, just differing needs.

It comes down again to personal needs. Can the average player who goes through Junior High School, High School and some college in America without ever considering becoming a music major be fine with a Vincent Bach or Denis Wick mouthpiece? I would think so, and how many more of these types of players are out there in comparison to professional and semi-professional players? The answer to that question reflects the current system and is based in simple economics…

[BGuttman]

How quickly we forget. Back in the Bad Old Days we used to have to test a dozen instruments to find "the one" that rang the bell. Teachers used to have a collection of horns they tested and found adequate to pass on to students.

It's still not perfect, but some makers have a good uniformity from example to example. Probably the best of these is Yamaha, who took Quality Control seriously.

CNC has made it possible to buy a mouthpiece and be reasonably sure it plays like another with the same nominal specs. Note that sometimes players will be able to detect very slight differences that can't be eliminated by careful CNC. Back in the Bad Old Days it was a guy working a lathe who would test the result and tweak. Yes, he was a master machinist, but nobody can be so perfect as to make dozens of parts exactly the same.

[CalgaryTbone]

I remember hearing Ron Barron giving a Masterclass at the "Brass Conference" in NYC (sponsored by Charles Colin for many years). This was very soon after he became Principal in Boston, in the mid-70's. He told us that he had 3 different Bach 5G's that he switched between for different uses. He took advantage of the inconsistent nature of the Bach mouthpieces from that period, and used a deeper one for pieces that needed a darker sound for loud, low writing, and a shallower choice for a brighter sound and high register. Nowadays, you can get different cups, etc. from manufacturers like Doug Elliott, Greg Black, Christan Griego and others with consistent rims if that's what you're looking for. I think we have better choices now.

Jim Scott

[Bach5G]

Perhaps apocryphal, but it was said Microsoft built X-boxes with a failure rate of, say, 5%. The MBAs figured it was more profitable to repair or replace under warranty than it was to build them so they wouldn’t fail. Some of the same has happened to German automobiles in the last decade and a half.

I do wonder about this as I’m not a gamer and my drive is a 2010 Honda CRV.

[pfrancis]

Another "they don't make 'em like they used to" post. You know, back when all those great, wonderful "old" things were made that you revere, people were saying about them that "they don't make 'em like they used to," too. It seems everything used to be made better. Everything. And yet, somehow things continue to get better.

My response was to simply point out we don’t have hand made or custom mouthpieces as often or as prevalent as in times past. One of two things I did place my personal evaluation on was that it is better for the consumer to have more predictable and repeatable results.

Personally I don’t like hunting for “the one”, I play modern instruments (and mouthpieces) that are “better” but mostly just better for me.

[Matt K]

Perhaps apocryphal, but it was said Microsoft built X-boxes with a failure rate of, say, 5%. The MBAs figured it was more profitable to repair or replace under warranty than it was to build them so they wouldn’t fail. Some of the same has happened to German automobiles in the last decade and a half.

I do wonder about this as I’m not a gamer and my drive is a 2010 Honda CRV.

FWIW, 5% is actually within the baseline, typical electronics failure rate. The XBox360 wiki on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_ ... l_problems) has some eye popping stastics on it:

Since its release on November 22, 2005, many articles have appeared in the media portraying the Xbox 360's failure rates,[3][4][5] with the latest estimate by warranty provider SquareTrade to be 23.7% in 2009,[6] and currently the highest estimate being 54.2% by a Game Informer survey.[7]

[StephenK]

Perhaps apocryphal, but it was said Microsoft built X-boxes with a failure rate of, say, 5%.

Back in the day (80s?) a well known UK manufacturer went to a even better know Japanese manufacturer to source computer chips, specifying no more than 2% to be faulty. Puzzled looks from them. They have a little meeting and come back asking whether the faulty chips should be kept separate or mixed in with the others?

[tbonesullivan]

I see a lot of this in the electric guitar world, where people have this idea of all the guitars being made in the 1950s and 1960s being "artisan" made, fully hand made, and so forth.

Fender and Gibson were companies with factories. There were no CNC machines, so a lot was done by hand, but they used lots of machines, early "duplicarver" designs, templates, and so forth. Necks were rolled by hand, but using a belt sander, not draw knives or other simple woodworking tools. Also everything was always done with the thought to profitability. This is why for a long time all Fender electric guitar bodies began their lives yellow with a "fullerplast" grain filler with a durability rivaled only by UMI Orange Lacquer. After they got that coating, then they were given the additional finishing, like a sunburst pattern. If you custom ordered a color, often they would just paint over the original color, which is why you see so many vintage and "relic" guitars with a solid color finish that has a tri color burst under it.

Anyway, today they use CNC machines, though hand finishing is still required, and I don't know if they will ever figure out how to do that with a CNC machine, which isn't a sanding machine.