History of King bass trombones

[JohnL]

What, exactly, do you think badge engineering is?

I would contend that the Benge trombones were sufficiently different that calling them "badge-engineered" isn't entirely fair. It's not like we're talking Cadillac Cimmaron/Chevrolet Citation (one of the most egregious examples of badge engineering in automotive history) or Conn 19-I/King 2280 here. There really was some original work that went into the Benge designs; the whole idea was that they needed to be different from the King instruments (at least as different as possible without shelling out for a lot of new tooling).

[spencercarran]

There really was some original work that went into the Benge designs; the whole idea was that they needed to be different from the King instruments (at least as different as possible without shelling out for a lot of new tooling).

I would say different from previous King models; others have already noted some of the design innovations/tweaks Chuck Ward brought to the line. But Benge trombones never existed as a separate entity from King (LA Benge trumpets are a different story of course). These were simply a new line of King trombones intended for the orchestral market, and it doesn't help to get too hung up on the branding.

[elmsandr]

What, exactly, do you think badge engineering is?

I would contend that the Benge trombones were sufficiently different that calling them "badge-engineered" isn't entirely fair. It's not like we're talking Cadillac Cimmaron/Chevrolet Citation (one of the most egregious examples of badge engineering in automotive history) or Conn 19-I/King 2280 here. There really was some original work that went into the Benge designs; the whole idea was that they needed to be different from the King instruments (at least as different as possible without shelling out for a lot of new tooling).

Perhaps another thought... if they wanted to call them the new King Orchestral Tenor and Bass.... would they have to change anything other than the engraving?

They were trying to make them different from the previous horns, but I don’t think the legacy of Mr. Benge was doing anything for inspiration here other than providing them a break from the reputation of the 4B and DuoGravis.

Cheers,
Andy

[henrysa]

Thank you so much for sharing this! It's a shame King no longer makes basses, and doesn't really meet the "market standards" anymore beyond their smaller "jazz" horns.

I see you have a King 4BF Sonorous. Me too please tell me your experiences with the horn.

[2bobone]

Perhaps it's a bit too late to jump onto the train here, but there is an important link in the King/Benge history that bears mentioning. I spent my career in the Washington, D.C. area and many of my instrumental purchases were with "Check Levin's Music Center" in the nearby Wheaton area of Maryland. Chuck was not a musician but he loved being involved with musicians and that love was reciprocated. I distinctly remember him telling me about flying his wife to California, renting a car and driving her to an industrial area to show her a nondescript building. Mrs. Levin, an ever present fixture directly inside the door of the Music Center store, was baffled at her husband's actions. He told her that he had purchased the former Benge Company and hoped she would be pleased. Of course she was surprised, but he'd bought the facilities of a revered manufacturer of top line trumpets without telling her about his actions ! Knowing Chuck's love of all things musical, even I was surprised at this semantical throwing of a life saver to such a diminished entity. I never followed the ensuing development of the company so I can't comment on its success other than to state that I chose a Benge 290 bass trombone to use for a premiere with the NSO over all of my other instruments. I had an 8B and a Duo Gravis of my own, but the 290 was perfectly slotted to the role. I think Chuck would smile at that !

[chromebone]

Re: Are Benges Kings.
According to Chuck Ward, they were going to be Kings designed by King and were Kings until a decision was made late in the process to rebrand them to get more orchestral players to use them because orchestral players tend to hear with their eyes and run with the pack and whatever Joe Alessi or whatever big star is playing rather than just play what works and sounds good for them.
There was a blind contest done by the British trombone society of all of the major brands at the time just before the Benge were introduced, and the prototype Benge won the contest; but it was delivered to the contest branded as a King 4B and was announced as the winner as a 4B. So as far as I’m concerned, they’re Kings.

[harrisonreed]

So was the 6B the same thing as the Duo-gravis (sans number) or not?

Also which king basses had sterling or Silversonic versions?

Duo-gravis, 7-B, and that's it?

[BGuttman]

So was the 6B the same thing as the Duo-gravis (sans number) or not?

Also which king basses had sterling or Silversonic versions?

Duo-gravis, 7-B, and that's it?

Just like the 5B was also called Symphony, the 6B was also called Duo Gravis. Confusingly, the same horn was also called 7B at one time.

The Duo Gravis and the "real" 7B (the dual indy) came in Silver Sonic versions. Don't know if the 8B came in silver (if so, VERY few of them were sold).

[YunoWho]

Hi,
don't mean to revive this thread sorry..
My school owns a King 8b Bass Trombone and it's from the late 1970's as far as I know. It's pretty beat up so I'm not surprised I didn't notice this sooner but it has an "X" engraving to the right of the serial number. I've looked everywhere for any information on it but couldn't find it. Do any of you know what that's about?

Thanks,

[YunoWho]

Honestly I don't know much about this horn in general. I can't ever find anything on an 8b, so anything would be lovely!

[flotrb]

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

1963 King 1480 5B Symphony Trombone .jpg

[YunoWho]

Definitely an 8b, but it has the finish of the 6b, is that normal? Thank you!

[BGuttman]

Definitely an 8b, but it has the finish of the 6b, is that normal? Thank you!

Yes. My 7B has a finish like the 6B picture.