PTFE for valve oil?

[ghmerrill]

Yes, yet another valve oil thread. Sorry -- who needs it? But ...

As I was oiling the rotary valves on my bass today (with whatever oil I had handy -- in this case some Monster Eco Pro I'm working on using up), I spied my bottle of 3-in-1 Multi-Purpose PTFE Lubricant sitting on the nearby counter, and thought "Hmmm ????? Why not?". This stuff is GREAT -- at least for a variety of uses to which I've put it. Easy to get and relatively inexpensive ($6 for 4 oz. at Lowes, oddly $10 from Amazon).

Has anyone been using this? I note that Denis Wick valve oil "contains" PTFE. And there was a thread on Dave Werden's forum where some people (including Dave) said that the Wick oil didn't work well for them (piston valves), and this was attributed to a speculation about "body chemistry." But other than that -- nothing. I don't see any other valve oil being described as containing PTFE.

I think I'm going to put some of this in one of my needle oilers and try it on the trombone, but I wondered if anyone else has tried it previously and what their results were. I'm not expecting anything dramatic, one way or the other, but it might be a very convenient alternative to ordering "valve oil" every now and then -- and might in fact work better (higher longevity?, better penetration?) particularly on valve bushings.

[BGuttman]

I bet the stuff would work GREAT as a linkage oil.

Is this a liquid PTFE? I've only seen solid PTFE. If this has small particles of PTFE in the oil I'd avoid using it for applications where the oil has to provide a slick film for movement, like a piston oil or for coating a rotor or axial core. Bearings may or may not be a good application.

[Kingfan]

I'm a retired safety engineer and my first search was for the safety specs. The Safety Data Sheet for 3-in-1 Multi-Purpose PTFE Lubricant says:

May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways.
Causes skin irritation.
May cause drowsiness or dizziness.
Prevention
Keep away from heat, sparks, open flames, and hot surfaces. No smoking.
Keep container tightly closed.
Ground and bond container and receiving equipment
Use explosion-proof electrical, ventilating and lighting equipment.
Use only non-sparking tools.
Take precautionary measures against static discharge.
Avoid breathing mist, vapors or spray.
Wash thoroughly after handling.
Use only outdoors or in a well-ventilated area.
Wear protective gloves and eye protection.
Response
IF ON SKIN (or hair): Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with soap and water.
If skin irritation occurs: Get medical attention. Wash contaminated clothing before reuse.
Page 2 of 5
IF INHALED: Remove person to fresh air and keep comfortable for breathing.
Call a POISON CENTER or doctor if you feel unwell.
IF SWALLOWED: Immediately call a POISON CENTER or doctor. Do NOT induce

I wouldn't use it as a valve lube, Linkage, maybe.

[ghmerrill]

I'm inclined to ignore most of that for reasons that are pretty obvious. Most of the details on that data sheet seem incompatible with what the product is specifically being sold for. And if you read further down in the safety sheet below all that scary stuff, you find

"The Following Controls are Recommended for Normal Consumer Use of this Product
Appropriate Engineering Controls: Use in a well-ventilated area.
Personal Protection:
Eye Protection: Avoid eye contact.
Skin Protection: Avoid prolonged skin contact.
Respiratory Protection: None needed for normal use with adequate ventilation."

This describes the much less scary cautions for "Normal Consumer Use". Since I won't be breathing it, drinking it, burning it, or rubbing it into my skin or eyes, it seems as safe to use on my trombone as it is to use on my sets of pliers and other tools. Of course, others may want to be more cautious

[Kingfan]

I've had clients ignore various material safety precautions and regret it. That said, I would use it on my hand tools, door hinges, and even trombone valve linkages but would not use it internally on a trombone, like on a slide or lubing the innards of a valve through the tubing or disassembling it. Too much chance of breathing too much of it in.

[ghmerrill]

Too much chance of breathing it in.

I don't know ... given the way I play and take breaths, I'd say there's zero chance of breathing it in. I never apply any suction to the horn through the mouthpiece, and the idea of noxious fumes somehow wafting back through the mouthpiece seems fanciful.

[Kingfan]

Your original post asked "Why not?". I told you why not. If you chose to ignore the advice of a safety professional with 57 years of trombone playing, that's up to you.

[ghmerrill]

I bet the stuff would work GREAT as a linkage oil.

Is this a liquid PTFE? I've only seen solid PTFE. If this has small particles of PTFE in the oil I'd avoid using it for applications where the oil has to provide a slick film for movement, like a piston oil or for coating a rotor or axial core. Bearings may or may not be a good application.

The 3-in-1 PTFE does seem to work great as a linkage oil. Also for rotor bearing surfaces, but that may take a bit longer to evaluate fully. It penetrates through the bushings very well (in part because of its lower viscosity). But it may require more frequent application -- although Wick touts PTFE's "longevity" properties and reduction of "evaporation" of the lubricant. However, since I lube my rotary valve bushings quite frequently, I'll probably stick with it in any event.

In terms of the rotor core, it occurs to me that there's nothing to be gained by using something like this -- and perhaps something to be lost. Unlike the case of a piston, there's no metal-on-metal contact in a rotary valve. So the function of the lube there is more to keep stuff moving through the valve, and inhibit any mineral buildup -- rather than to reduce friction. If you've got friction with your rotary valve core, you've got real trouble that lube isn't going to help. Lubing more frequently (with whatever you use) and letting it flush out may be better than less frequent lubrication with a longer-lasting lubricant. But that's just speculation on my part.

I suspect that the idea of adding PTFE in the Wick valve oil was to make it more effective in the piston valves of tubas and euphoniums. There was something of a debate on the Trumpet Herald forum about 20 years ago concerning the action and efficacy of the Wick oil with PTFE. It came down (surprise) along empirical observation vs. appeals to authority and speculative thought experiment lines. I think technology has progressed in the interim.

[JohnL]

I might be more concerned with the aliphatic hydrocarbons (45-50% by weight) and the heptane (20-40% by weight) that the PTFE...

[hyperbolica]

May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways.
Causes skin irritation.

I think the back of a Blue Juice bottle says the same thing. I wouldn't worry unless it smells bad. Don't lick your valves. Teflon is inert, even if it gets a lot of bad press.

[dwcarder]

Some interesting discussion down the page in this forum:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threa ... 039/page-2

I do have a bottle of the Wick w/ PTFE (I forget how/why I got it). I didn't see much of a difference w/ it on my (piston) tuba. I have not bothered to try it on my trumpet.

My personal opinion for rotors particularly is that after a good cleaning, a high quality synthetic is the way to go and there are some good ones to choose from from the usual suspects.

[ghmerrill]

I do have a bottle of the Wick w/ PTFE (I forget how/why I got it). I didn't see much of a difference w/ it on my (piston) tuba. I have not bothered to try it on my trumpet.

I think that some came with my Wessex Eb tuba when I got it. The problem with it was primarily that the bottle was weird -- you couldn't dispense a drop or two, but a bunch would gush out. So I relegated it to tool oil status. Apparently they later fixed the dispensing problem.

My personal opinion for rotors particularly is that after a good cleaning, a high quality synthetic is the way to go and there are some good ones to choose from from the usual suspects.

Once I found the Yamaha Light Valve Oil I just stuck with that -- eventually switching over to the Standard version when some wear got on the pistons, and using the Heavy variety for my old 1924 tuba.

[Posaunus]

I have been using a 50 mL bottle of Denis Wick "Valve Oil with PTFE" for my trombone rotors (as well as a Getzen 3047 axial) for more than a year.
[My regular hygiene protocol includes a few drops into the bell-section receiver, worked in by actuating the valve several times, and draining excess if any.]
I don't know how or when I acquired this oil (it's been a while). In any case, my valves all function perfectly - quiet and smooth.

On the back of the bottle:
IMPROVED PERFORMANCE
Microscopic PTFE particles
help insure a fast action
and effective protection
from wear.

SHAKE WELL BEFORE USE

X HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED

KEEP OUT OF THE
REACH OF CHILDREN!

When I empty this bottle, my backup is a bottle of ULTRA-PURE Valve Oil (synthetic) which I've also had for several years.
Hope there's no problem mixing oils types / brands as some have claimed!

[BGuttman]

I've had good luck mixing UltraPure and nearly any other lube. And I have experienced the problem of mixing Slide-O-Mix with Trombotine.

[ghmerrill]

I've not had any problem mixing synthetics. Most of the problems I've seen reported appear to result from mixing syntho with dyno oils (or not cleaning thoroughly before switching over), but that behavior seems not to be entirely uniform across all possibilities. But again, I think you can expect to notice different results between effects on pistons and on other types of valves. Hetman lubricants seem to present their own issues -- with one contingent testifying that they're fantastic and another that they're disastrous. It appears that this might be some sort of "body chemistry" issue. But no one has done any meaningful studies.

[timothy42b]

I've had clients ignore various material safety precautions and regret it.

I've worked in a manufacturing plant and seen a forklift driver come around the corner too fast with a 55 gallon drum of the same stuff we might use in a 25 ml bottle. That MSDS is really to protect the industrial user who fills the little bottle. Not that we should ignore it, but yes it really makes sense to have MSDS's for stuff that might seem silly like Whiteout etc.