Single tounge problem, disorder

[HunTromBoy]

hello everybody!

So I would like to ask for help with a problem that I haven't experienced much with other people in my environment, I don't know if anyone besides me is struggling with this problem. So when I use single tounge and above a certain tempo, especially when I'm nervous in a stressful situation, I involuntarily start pressing my tongue to my teeth. I've heard of someone who has this when they have to start a note in a slow piece, if I remember correctly, some kind of valsalva manuevere reflex. well, I experience something like this when I have to use simple tounge at a faster pace, especially when I'm more nervous, I just press my tongue to my teeth and completely block the air path, this is very exhausting for me. if anyone is interested, maybe i can show it in a video call. I am struggiling with this a long time ago.

[Savio]

You could try to make with different attacks; "da-da" "de-de" "ka-ka" "tho-tho" "the-the" Whatever works. Can change from different registers. I had some problems with attacks and what helped me was to make my throat more open. Easier to breath also. Also what helped me was the air must never stop on fast tongue. Don't need so much air. Don't know if this helps though?

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

Without seeing you...

I recommend working on a smooth triple and double tongue, so you use those instead of trying to single tongue fast.

Say Nenga-Nenga-Nega-Nenga.
Try to duplicate that feel with De-Ge-De-Ge-De-Ga-De-Ge

and for triple, Nenenga-Nenenga-Nenenga-Nenenga.

It doesn't have to be fast, work on it slowly.

The N and the "ng" places your tongue farther back and in a more relaxed position.
And the "eh" vowel position applies to the midrange much better than "ah"

[HunTromBoy]

So the problem is my tounge do this when i play above 100 bpm so i doing something very wrong. When i have to play 16th notes. And this is i think a psychological isue. Beacuse i practise more and more to build my single tounge faster and faster or a practising like trombone excerpt from william tell overture. Sometimes i play it very good wihout problem but then it is change and i am just push my tounge to my teeth and i don’t know what is the difference and ehy is it happening.

[Burgerbob]

What happens away from the instrument?

[Doug Elliott]

I can't single tongue fast either. That's why I multiple tongue. It works, just do it.

It sounds like you're dismissing my approach without even trying it.

[HunTromBoy]

I understand what you advise, I just wanted to clarify that my simple tounge is so slow that even above 100bpm the game causes problems. But is it possible for me to practice the double and triple tounging so much that it sounds exactly like the simple tounging , so that it can hold its place in classical music, or even in a audition in a symphony orchestra?

[HunTromBoy]

Burgerbob

It’s a little bit better without the instrument. Just blow the air and use the tounge even without the mouthpiece. Sometimes i have that feeling and my tounge works good but than when i nervous and think about that thing it is happening again. So it more like a psychological issue. Of course i have technical issues too because when i started to learn on the trombone i used my tounge like, my tounge was always between my teeth and my tounge going back and forward. I used my tounge this way like for 10 years so for me this type of articulation is a very very strong muscle memory. And i feel not comfortably to do with the normal way.

[Doug Elliott]

100 is about where I switch from single to multiple.
If you work on it well it can sound the same as single.
It's not a forward and backward motion, so it's a lot more relaxed and easy.

[HunTromBoy]

Dough Elliot

and how long did it take you to practice it to the point where it sounded like a simple language? would you be able to show me or we could talk about it in an online class? it would help me a lot

[Doug Elliott]

Sure, send me a message here and tell me some times that work for you in the next few days. I'm in Eastern time, near Washington DC.

[GabrielRice]

I also have to switch from single to multiple tonguing 16ths around 100BPM.

Actually, what I find myself doing fairly often is inserting one da-ga or du-gu in a string of single tongued 16ths.

[timothy42b]

I don't know if this relates to the topic but I've been thinking about it lately. If it's interesting to anyone I'll split it off into another thread.

Maybe it's just me. But I can lip slur an exercise much faster than I can multiple tongue it.

For example, something simple like

I can slur it, or multiple tongue on each note then change, but when I multiple tongue as a line it seems like half speed is hard.

Normal? Evidence of a faulty technique?

[baileyman]

Something seems to happen in those 2 3 4 partials. I think there can be a conflict between tongue articulation and tongue tuning for the notes. One seems to get in the way of the other. The 2 partial is half the frequency of the 4 partial, so some kind of doubling and halving has to happen in the mechanism in order to make the change. Maybe it does not have to be all in the tongue, but it seems like a lot of it must be. Sometimes I see people's faces where there is clearly a large muscular movement of chops. I try to avoid that, but it is a possible other path.

When i pay attention to it, I'll typically tongue a stream on both partials, and slur back and forth without tongue, then "lay the tongue on the slur" as an old pro said once. Lay it lightly. The untongued slur already articulates pretty well. It only takes a slight bump to distinguish it further.