Buying a chinese made bass trombone

[thomasa]

Hi!
Anybody that has experience of the cheap Chinese made bass trombones that often has the resellers brand?
I want to buy one as a second instrument that I don't have to be careful of.
Double valve Bb/F/Gb/D.

What brands are good?

Where can I buy one?

/Thomas
My history: King Duo Gravis, Holton TR-181, Bach 50B, 50B2, Yamaha YBL-613, YBL-830

[NotSkilledHere]

they are mediocre at best. im not sure which of the low cost brands are better than which, but you can probably find a really cheap used one on ebay. The main problem i find with them, and most of the low tier chinese horns in general, is that they dont tend to hold up well over time especially if they leave the home. and even then, they tend to have a bunch of random build issues.

Some of the higher end chinese horns obviously are not "cheap" but do fall into "affordable" but for some of those prices you may as well look for a used name brand horn.

You can probalby find a bunch of the cheap chinese horns you are looking for all over ebay, aliexpress, and even amazon. alternatively, you could probably buy one of those Dillon basses for decently cheap. or Wessex. im not sure off the top of my head what the rest are.

You can probably find some really beat up bach 50s in the same price ranges that you would pay for those chinese horns too. and if it gets damaged in some way, you just have spare bach 50 parts you can resell.

[Matt K]

Wessex and Y-Fort seem to be at the top of the pack. They also aren't that much cheaper than a good used horn though, for what it's worth.

[Burgerbob]

Y-Fort does not make a bass at the moment.

[hyperbolica]

Mack Brass sells an instrument that has had good comments, and you can deal with an individual with integrity. Tom McGrady is a helpful and honest guy. I've bought a couple of tubas from him, and he's easy to deal with. Especially if you live near Fredricksburg Virginia.

[ghmerrill]

As my signature attests, I have a "Schiller" Chinese bass I got from Jim Laabs Music almost 10 years ago. Honestly, I love it. Would I recommend that someone else go in that direction -- not necessarily, but for certain goals you may have, it's not unreasonable. I've posted several times on a couple of forums on my experience with it and what modifications I've made to it. It's pretty much identical to the Wessex PBF562 model which is (mostly?) an attempt at cloning a King 7B. At the time, the Schiller cost me $580 delivered to my door.

The build quality was surprisingly good -- in fact, a bit better fit and finish than on my (1st generation) Mack Brass euph and my Wessex Champion Besson Eb compensating tuba. The one thing that was obviously wrong with it at the start was that the end of the lead pipe seemed out of round. I called Schiller (which does not have the best reputation for customer support), and Troy Laabs immediately offered to send me a new slide. As there was nothing wrong with the slide other than the lead pipe, and given that I wanted to pull the lead pipe so I could play with replaceable ones, I told him to wait on that until I could get the lead pipe pulled and then we'd see. He was fine with that. My tech and I jointly attacked the horn and removed the leadpipe. So then I was set to go.

Eons ago I'd had a Holton 181 (never got good with it), and didn't want to repeat that painful ergonomic experience. I wanted a horn I could learn to play on, and one I could experiment on without worrying about losing thousands of dollars if I made the wrong step with it. I added a Bullet Brace to it. That helped a lot. I settled on a Brass Ark MV50 red brass lead pipe. The horn played well and sounded good. The slide was great (still is). Can you tell it's not a $5,000 horn? Sure, if you know what to look for. But it's not all that obvious to the untutored eye. I've had the valves apart several times for cleaning (I do that periodically), and they're fine. Sure, you can see some roughness and imprecise fitting on some of the joints -- but I've seen worse in pictures of much "better" trombones on this site. And, as is often said about instruments, none of this "affects playability" -- at least to any degree that I can tell. I added a counterweight -- big improvement. I tinkered with the 2nd valve rod to modify it into a position that better fit my hand. And then played it in that condition for years.

Note that some of those improvements I would have made to ANY horn.

This past year, having decided to dump the tuba and euph and focus on bass trombone, I did a lot of hand-wringing about whether I should buy a "real" trombone. A lot of time was spent on that. But I actually LIKE this horn, and I love how it sounds in the jazz band I'm now in. (It will never be a symphonic bass, but neither was the 7B.) I finally decided that if I were to get a different horn, the only one I'd probably want was a Getzen 1052FDR. So I"m sticking with this one.

The last mod to it was done about a month ago when I convinced Mike Morse at Tuba Exchange to replace the junk 2nd valve saddle with an Instrument Innovations one. This was a big improvement, and I should have had it done earlier. It cost me less than $150 dollars including parts. The only other change I've made to it recently is to switch to an MK Drawing MV50 nickel leadpipe which works better for me in the jazz band.

So that's my experience. My particular horn plays in tune, with great sound, and an excellent slide. You could do a lot worse for a lot more money. Or not. So for some, I'd say it's definitely a possibility. I seem to recall that Aidan posted a video review of a bunch of bass trombones a while ago that included one of these Chinese 7B clones and his verdict was "Not bad." I don't think that one was modified as mine was.

[peteedwards]

I also own a Schiller bass trombone 7B copy sold by Jim Laabs music,
it is extensively modified (see https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082)
but I must say the horn was quite playable as is out of the box.

I use it for orchestra playing quite often, usually for lighter fare, but I just played it in a concert last Sunday playing Tchaik 5 and it held its own quite well. The new valves help a lot. (see https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=36910)(shameless plug)

[Digidog]

All cheaper Chinese horns I've played (tubas, euph's, trombones, trumpets) have been of poor metal quality, poor alloys I'd guess, and some have been outright poorly built and assembled.

My impressions have been that the metal most often is soft, the instrument's forming and shaping not always up to par, and fitting a hit or a miss. From what I have seen from long and heavy use in schools and bands, they most often do not last long without wearing, denting (soft metals) and loosing form (easily bent braces on trumpet triggers, inner slides not holding parallell, piston valve housings deforming from slight misalignment of the piston et.c.) and the faults they develop are most often more expensive to repair than buying a new cheap schmuck-horn.

So I would recommend buying a used quality horn any day, for what's the point of buying a sub par instrument - that may play well - only to modify it right away for it to last? I'd guess that repairing and restoring an old used quality horn is a better investment in the long run, than buying a cheap hit-or-miss instrument that by it's basic traits and raison-d'être is made to run the risk of not holding up for long.

[ghmerrill]

All cheaper Chinese horns I've played (tubas, euph's, trombones, trumpets) have been of poor metal quality, poor alloys I'd guess, and some have been outright poorly built and assembled.

There was definitely a period when this was true. If you look on TubaForum.net you'll see a lengthy period (of probably about 10 years) of beating up on the overall quality of Chinese instruments. No longer. Even some of the most stubborn holdouts (in terms of professional techs) have changed their view on what is currently available.

One of the recurring issues over time has been the quality of threads on valve caps (both piston and rotary). 15 years ago this bordered on dreadful. Ten years ago it was moving in the "okay" direction, and it's improved since then. My Wessex tuba has a problem only with the 2nd valve, and I managed to live comfortably with it just by adding a bit of silicone grease to the valve cap. Otherwise, in that case I got the functionality and performance of a $25,000 (tuba -- cost of the Besson at that time) for $2,500. The brass (and threading) was notably better than in my Mack Brass euphonium which I'd got about five priors to that. The threads in my Schiller trombone have been entirely without problems -- and show this under magnification.

The John Packer instruments (a bit higher priced) have quite good reputations nowadays and even produce a trombone in collaboration with Rath. Instruments will vary with the source from which they're obtained.

I've run into the same issues you mention and documented them on three different forums, and I'm not trying to "sell" anyone on buying Chinese instruments, but things have changed significantly over time, and I'm curious as to specifically which ones of these you've tried and when you tried them. And when you say "cheaper Chinese horns", do you mean to contrast those with "more expensive Chinese horns"? Are there more expensive Chinese horns that you'd point to as acceptable?

I do have to say that none of these -- in terms of materials quality -- approaches my 1924 Buescher tuba or 1965 Amati euphonium. But that's true of pretty much any contemporary instrument.

[BGuttman]

The problem with Chinese instruments has usually been a lack of Quality Control. Anything that makes it to the end of the line ships. Some are OK, some not. People like Laabs and Wessex (and Shires for Eastman and Rath for the JP Rath) do the QC and reject the bad examples. These vendors are more reliable. Also they tend to be a little more expensive.

[Digidog]

I've run into the same issues you mention and documented them on three different forums, and I'm not trying to "sell" anyone on buying Chinese instruments, but things have changed significantly over time, and I'm curious as to specifically which ones of these you've tried and when you tried them. And when you say "cheaper Chinese horns", do you mean to contrast those with "more expensive Chinese horns"? Are there more expensive Chinese horns that you'd point to as acceptable?

A couple of years ago, right when the first decline of the Corona pandemic let societies briefly open again, I was hired for a music school orchestra project that had been cancelled due to the pandemic. The school had bought a lot of orchestral instruments to let students with suitable ages and skills widen their instrumental use and introduce playing in various orchestral settings. They had bought euphoniums, tubas of various sizes, F-attachment trombones, bass trombones, trumpets of different tunings, Eb horns, french horns and two piccola trumpets - all were JP or Wessex. I was to lead a wind- and a brass orchestra for the ten rehearsals - or so - that constituted the main project part.

Out of a total of ten trumpets, two were playable right away, the majority could be played after lubricating and oil-bathing the valves, but three never got to work right, no matter what the school's instrument tech did. Almost all trumpets had valves that were not smooth and the valve springs on all had a tendency to weaken significantly after only a couple of days play-testing.

The trombones were better, but had slide fitting rings that were of such soft metal, that they literally unscrewed themselves during playing. None of the slides were good out of the box, and some slides quickly developed misalignment and wear on the socks from that. The metal in the bells seemed soft and brittle, and could not accomodate loud dynamics, when the bells "cracked up" and it felt like the sound broke through the walls of the flare, instead of projecting forward. The valves were so-so.

The tubas and euph's had problems similar to the trumpets, but some of the valve pistons had some corrosion-like eating on the plating, out of the box. One euphonium were unusable since some of its tuning slides were impossible to move, and one Eb-horn as well because of a stuck valve.

I could go on..... Leaking spit valves with poor springs, and so.

Out of a total of some thirty five to forty instruments, only a fraction were playable right away, with no prior minor or major fixing from either me or the tech. Two had seemingly irrepairable issues, and several were bordering on defective to a degree where long time use was not possible without serious damage or irrepairable defects developing.

The start of that project had to be significantly postponed, since so many instruments had to go back because of defects. We finally got instruments that worked, that also were JP and Wessex, but I visitied that school about a year ago and none(!) of the instruments bought for that project were in use anymore.

Adding to that, a friend of mine has a Wessex euphonium that plays really well, but has had several valve piston changes and repairs from some issue with the valve casings - his tech is not sure what it is, but it wears out the piston plating after a couple of years of playing.

His horn is about eight or ten years old (maybe more), so I guess that's from the bad era, but the instruments at that school, were purchased around 2020-21.

So; my experiences with cheaper Chinese instruments are not the best.

[ghmerrill]

To be completely honest, and despite vendors' claims to the contrary, I have NEVER received a Chinese instrument that I felt had been subjected to QC by the vendor. Every time, I saw at least one obvious thing where my reaction was "How did this ever get past a simple pre-shipping inspection?"

The FIRST thing you need to do with one of these instruments (again, in my experience, and maybe things have changed) is to (a) look it over VERY carefully, and (b) (Possibly) replace water key corks, and (c) CLEAN it thoroughly. Then -- for piston valve instruments -- replace the valve spacers with high quality versions, and -- for rotary valve instruments -- check valve alignment, fix as necessary, and possibly replace bumper material. Of course, some of that (even if just the checking) should be done with any instrument you get. At least trombone players don't have to deal with the piston valve issues.

Again, I won't make any sweeping generalizations from my own experience (which also spanned about 10 years, during which things changed), and I would hope that things are better today. But this sort of vigilance is part of the "cost" (or risk) of buying a Chinese instrument -- at least from a remote source as opposed to a local shop. You can either factor it in and decide it's worth the risk and you can handle it, or decide that you don't want to face that risk and go in another direction. But as with any remote purchase, you should make sure of exactly what your situation (and potential cost) will be in either returning the instrument or having it repaired (either by returning it or having it done locally and reimbursed). That's an issue you face in buying anything remotely. Don't make assumptions (or be satisfied with generalities) about what the post-sale support will be.

If you want a comparison to other experiences with purchasing/using Chinese instruments from various vendors, take a look at Dave Werden's Tuba/Euph forum (https://dwerden.com/forum/) and the Tuba Forum (https://www.tubaforum.net/). Tuba and euph players seem to have been much more inclined to go in that direction, and you'll get a lot of perspectives and experience feedback there.

[ghmerrill]

A couple of years ago, right when the first decline of the Corona pandemic let societies briefly open again, I was hired for a music school orchestra project that had been cancelled due to the pandemic. The school had bought a lot of orchestral instruments to let students with suitable ages and skills widen their instrumental use and introduce playing in various orchestral settings. They had bought euphoniums, tubas of various sizes, F-attachment trombones, bass trombones trumpets of different tunings, Eb horns, french horns and two piccola trumpets - all were JP or Wessex. I was to lead a wind- and a brass orchestra for the ten rehearsals - or so - that constituted the main project part. ...

Good feedback. I'm surprised to see that degree of failure this late in the game -- particularly from JP (but only because of things I've "heard" about their quality).

I would not, in general, recommend Chinese instruments for school use, unless "school" means college or university level. And then I'm not sure it would be good to recommend them as school (as opposed to individual) instruments. I'm not sure what I would recommend, but very likely some line specifically intended for school use by one of the major manufacturers.

Recommendation for individual use by "adults" is another matter since there are issues of ownership and care that change between those two contexts -- and since dealing with any issues for your own individual instrument doesn't involve the issues of exchanging an entire shipment (including scheduling) of instruments for an entire department.

I do, however, regard your experience as one properly described as "shameful" concerning the performance of the vendor.

[Digidog]

I do, however, regard your experience as one properly described as "shameful" concerning the performance of the vendor.

For sure!

It was one of those companies that specialize in selling instruments by mail order to schools and orchestras, often very cheap. That project in question could probably not have been undertaken if the instruments had cost even slightly more, but my guess is that had they invested in Yamaha's cheapest line of orchestral brass - they would in the long run have saved both money and time.

From what I remember, all euph's and Eb-horns were JP, as were the trumpets (those were the instruments I checked out first, and I remember the black cases with the initials on them), but this was some three or four years back so I'm not sure with the trombones, tubas and the french horns.

....and believe me: I too was surprised at (and let down by) how bad that purchase turned out, and what abysmal over all quality the instruments were of.

[ghmerrill]

It was one of those companies that specialize in selling instruments by mail order to schools and orchestras, often very cheap.

I missed this part. So the supplier was some "middle man" company rather than buying directly from JP or Wessex directly?

That makes me wonder exactly what the school got in terms of the instruments (especially at that time) and how the middle man had got them. Not that that excuses or explains poor quality if an instrument has "John Packer" or "Wessex" engraved on it.

What a dreadful and frustrating experience.