patina or not?

[OldWetOneCanoli]

I have a friendly banter going on with a friend of my wife, who I believe is not a musician. My favorite horn is my Bach 36. It has a sweet sound and a great slide, but the lacquer had been stripped by a previous owner so its appearance is what some people would consider to be ugly. To me it is proof that old things that have lost their bling still can have value. My wife's friend - and at times, others - have told me to polish the horn, which I refuse to do. I don't want to be stripping metal from the horn, and am concerned that doing so might change the sound. My question - how many forum members play raw brass?

[Nolankberk]

You are correct that polishing it is probably not a great idea. I personally love old ugly horns, they have more appeal to my eye than fresh horns.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Love me some patina!

[tbonesullivan]

Sadly, this is how a lot of the world thinks. Not Shiny = BAD. I work with antique military items, and there is a lot of discussion regarding "restoration" versus "patinated". Old flintlocks in Europe are often given the "continental clean", nice and polished, which some purists abhor. Sadly with all the youtube, facebook, and tiktok "restoration" videos you've got a lot of people who have no idea what they are doing ruining valuable antiques. They take old edged weapons into the hardware store for "sharpening", and proudly offer these items "razor sharp".. even if they were usually never sharpened.

My worst experiences are as a lover of Japanese edged weapons, as after WWII many bringbacks from Japan have left high quality laminated steel blades in the hands of those who do not know how to care for them. They get rusty, and instead of properly getting them polished, they take them to a polishing wheel or sometimes even a grinding wheel, and go to town. We did have one customer come in to offer us a sword, and bragged about he had taken it to a great sharpening guy.

A "great sharpening guy" would have turned down a Japanese sword, as they know what an actual polish of the sword entails, and it is not what they are set up to do. It was definitely an older blade, but it had been buffed enough to make the geometry look "rounded", and as a final insult, had been run through a knife sharpener.

So yes, your horns are beautiful as they are. If you want them to look slightly better but preserve the patina: Renaissance Wax. Then you can take out the little canister and say "these are protected with a formula developed for the Imperial War Museum, approved by His Majesty King Charles the Third"

[AtomicClock]

As an audience member, I am occasionally annoyed by the stage lights briefly reflecting back into my eye. At a brass heavy concert, it's almost too much. I really wish we'd all reconsider the desire for everything to bling.

[MalecHeermans]

Patina!

[hyperbolica]

Most of my horns lack lacquer. I have a few shiny ones, and I probably won't strip those, but I never lacquer a stripped horn. I like the patina. Unfortunately, every time one of my stripped horns goes to the shop, they feel obligated to polish it for me. The only reasons I've polished a horn have been to get out stains on my Olds Recording.

The biggest problem with raw brass is discoloration on skin or shirt collars, so I generally use grips and guards.

[TomInME]

I've been asked if mine (gold brass, thoroughly aged) was made of wood...

[sirisobhakya]

I quite like patina. What I don’t like is the “sticky” feeling of an unlacquered horn.

[harrisonreed]

My worst experiences are as a lover of Japanese edged weapons, as after WWII many bringbacks from Japan have left high quality laminated steel blades in the hands of those who do not know how to care for them.

Weren't most of those trophy blades just cheap stamped army/navy guntou in equally cheap Japanese style fittings? There was no problem with those going to the States because they were nearly worthless brand new, and Japanese officials knew it. Aside from the Honjou Masamune, which is straight up gone and likely pilfered by a Japanese citizen in the 40's shortly after it was turned in to the police, I thought most of the stolen national treasures were already returned.

[tbonesullivan]

Weren't most of those trophy blades just cheap stamped army/navy guntou in equally cheap Japanese style fittings? There was no problem with those going to the States because they were nearly worthless brand new, and Japanese officials knew it. Aside from the Honjou Masamune, which is straight up gone and likely pilfered by a Japanese citizen in the 40's shortly after it was turned in to the police, I thought most of the stolen national treasures were already returned.

Most, yes, but there were plenty of swords with blades made using tahagahane in the traditional manner that got taken home during and after WWII as well. Most of these were forged during the WWII era, and I had the pleasure of handling one by SAKAI SHIGEMASA that had a KIKUSUI 菊 水 (Chrysanthemum on Water) temper line. This has been refit post war, but I've seen others that were still in the Type 98 Shin-gunto fittings. Some of these have been returned to Japan for polishing and been SHINSA papered by the NBTHK and NTHK.

Then there are Edo period blades, often family blades, that were refit with the Type 98 Shinto fittings. I got to handle one from 1st Generation MASAHIRO, who worked in the early 17th century. It was in VERY good polish. These are a minority of what came back, but they definitely did come back, mixed in with lots of arsenal forged and machine made blades. Some of these have been papered at the high levels by the HBTHK and NTHK, though I don't know if any "National Treasure" level blades have been found that were refit for wwii.

[Digidog]

My worst experiences are as a lover of Japanese edged weapons, as after WWII many bringbacks from Japan have left high quality laminated steel blades in the hands of those who do not know how to care for them. They get rusty, and instead of properly getting them polished, they take them to a polishing wheel or sometimes even a grinding wheel, and go to town. We did have one customer come in to offer us a sword, and bragged about he had taken it to a great sharpening guy.

A "great sharpening guy" would have turned down a Japanese sword, as they know what an actual polish of the sword entails, and it is not what they are set up to do. It was definitely an older blade, but it had been buffed enough to make the geometry look "rounded", and as a final insult, had been run through a knife sharpener.

As a longtime practitioner of Iaido and Jodo (with all the to them associated arts) I know for a fact that many of those swords brought "home" from WWII often were several hundred years old. Of course most swords were probably lost with death of their owners in the throes of war and in suicides when conditions were irreversible from defeat, but a not unsignificant number were taken to America as loot seen as souvenirs.

In the imperial army the overwhelming majority of the officers were from old samurai families, or upper class families with samurai origins, and officers were the only ones allowed to wear a sword as an attire.

A couple of years ago I visited a swordsmith - one of the few left - who said that many swords lost to American souvenir collectors in WWII were as old as from 12th century, with a majority probably from the 17th and 18th centuries. But he said that some families he knew of, that now probably are extinct, lost old Heian swords in the war, 10th and 11th century weapons, that were brought out for the war as symbols of the old battlefield commanding class.

This is why Japan has such hard control of antiquities and newly produced goods that could be mistaken for antiquities. Every time when I have bought martial arts weapons in Japan, I have had a real hassle in bringing them home; having to have multiple certificates, letters of confidence, affidavits from the makers, yet still being suspiciously and closely examined and scruitinzed by the customs.

So my guess is that there were millions of dollars worth of extremely precious, antique swords brought to the US during the war, by people who have maltreated and misused them to the degree that there is not much more than scrap money left of their worth. There may be some really fine examples out there to be found in a barn or a garage, but probably not many.

[MStarke]

Back to trombones

I have a mix. Some horns with very good lacquer remain as they are, some had already lost most of their lacquer when I bought them and on some horns (or parts of them) I removed lacquer myself.
It takes a few weeks until the brass starts to darken, after roughly 6-18 months there is some strong patina.

It may be placebo, but on some horns I imagine that removing the lacquer has made some positive difference in response.

On most horns I like the look. There is just one "problem case" for me: My Minick smallbore plays great and is mechanically good to great. But the lacquer is extremely spotty/half gone and you could say it looks like sh.. But I don't really want to change anything on this special horn.

[mazman]

Well I like shiny. I don't like patina at all. I don't like the look, and I certainly don't like the brass stink on my skin.

[Sesquitone]

Well I like shiny. I don't like patina at all. I don't like the look, and I certainly don't like the brass stink on my skin.

I also prefer "nice shiny brass instruments" (as do many conductors). There have been many studies concerning the difference in sound between lacquered and un-lacquered brass instruments. As I recall, there were some "just measurable" results (fractions of a decibel over a wide range of frequencies)—but not perceptible to audience members. [Some players report a difference in "feedback". But, apparently, there's negligible difference in what comes out the bell.]

Some people are allergic to raw brass (and other metals). Silver plating (with gold plating on the interior of the bell) is an "attractive" option—and not too expensive. Anderson Silver Plating has a well-deserved reputation for fine work and good customer service.


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[BrassSection]

I like both. Trumpet, trombone, and euph are all shiny, and all play nice. Tuba is tarnished silver, French horn basically lacquer is all gone, and a really old raw trumpet. My ugly old French horn plays for me as well as my daughter’s shiny one. (Do like hers at times, it’s a double, mine is only single. Hers also has quieter string operated valves, mine has mechanical linkage) My old trumpet is not the best of players, only plays in tune with one particular very old Olds mouthpiece, and just doesn’t have the brilliance of my silver one. Maybe a good deep cleaning would improve it, but it’s rarely used. It was made in Bohemia, it may work good on Bohemian Rhapsody! And it’s the first trumpet seen by any trumpet player i know that is for left handed players!

[Sesquitone]

Here are a couple of publications of careful studies by Robert Pyle on the effects of lacquer and silver plating. Clearly, plating has no measurable effect. Lacquer tends to dampen output at high frequencies.


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