F Attachment on .500 bore Gilkes instrument

[Sesquitone]

Here are the promised Bb/G position markings for the chromatically descending sequence of minor thirds. Slide-alone (SA) positions are indicated in black; G-attachment positions in red, circled for emphasis. You will notice that, except for the shift from SA6th to SA2nd in full measure 3, nowhere else does the slide need to move more than two positions. As mentioned, each note is played on a different (SA or attachment) harmonic, never crossing another harmonic of the same family. This means that the complete phrase can be played in a single breath with "relaxed" lip slurs (i.e. you don't have to worry about accidentally "tripping over" an intermediate harmonic). In case anyone is imagining that this warmup is concocted just to "show off" the minor-third attachment, and is irrelevant for most literature liable to be encountered in this (low-tenor) range, let me remind them that little groups of descending thirds are often helpful in ornamenting a scalar passage when improvising—as is often done in the facile upper register.

With that in mind, let me point out that the minor-third attachment is "perfect" for jazz improvisation in the lower register: for arpeggios with notes three or four SA positions apart (within the bass clef), there is usually another attachment note available in between (playing against the grain) for filling in a scale. For example, play an ascending Bb major-sixth tetrad, Bb2 - D3 - F3 - G3 - Bb3, using conventional positions: 1 - 4 - 1 - 4 -1. Now stick an attachment note in between Bb2 and D3, say C3 in attachment 3rd position. Play another note in between D3 and F3, along the Bb third harmonic, say Eb3. Then another attachment note in between F3 and G3, say F#3 in attachment 2nd position. Finally, play A3 between G3 and Bb3. You now have an ascending major bebop scale, Bb2-C3-D3-Eb3-F3-F#3-G3-A3-Bb3, played with the slide moving smoothly: SA1st --> SA4th --> SA1st --> SA4th --> SA1st, with the (ascending) C3 and F#3 "clicked" in between as the slide moves out. This can be played "lightning" fast (ascending or descending), just as it can an octave higher with very similar (all SA) positions. Slight variations will give you eight-note "jazz" scales for "filling in" between tetrads of various colours (in duple time, every second note is a chord note): dominant seventh, minor-sixths and sevenths, including diminished or augmented fifths, and so on—all with possibly altered ninths, elevenths and thirteenths. After some familiarisation, ascending and descending "fill-in" scalar passages like this—usually involving alternating SA and attachment notes (i.e. trigger-wiggling)—become second nature.
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[imsevimse]

If you special order a tenor with a bore .500 or less, then why not order it with a valve in G and an additional slide to put it in F. The only drawback with this is you can not pull that F slide to E because the legs will be short. If you want to play a low B on that special horn you either fake it or you also order an additional slide for bE-tuning or Eb-tuning. I think the serious tromboneplayer need more trombones than one. This means you probably have one or more larger horns already with F-valve. You then bring the right tool for the job. A Bb/G is a special horn, and that valve has another purpose than the f-valve. It can make your life easier in the staff, if you have some awkward patterns within the staff. I have a G, Gb and F-slide for my valve but I have never felt the need to change. I can solve everything that turns up in a tenor part with that Bb/G setup.

/Tom

[Sesquitone]

If you special order a tenor with a bore .500 or less, then why not order it with a valve in G and an additional slide to put it in F. The only drawback with this is you can not pull that F slide to E because the legs will be short. If you want to play a low B on that special horn you either fake it or you also order an additional slide for bE-tuning or Eb-tuning. I think the serious tromboneplayer need more trombones than one. This means you probably have one or more larger horns already with F-valve. You then bring the right tool for the job. A Bb/G is a special horn, and that valve has another purpose than the f-valve. It can make your life easier in the staff, if you have some awkward patterns within the staff. I have a G, Gb and F-slide for my valve but I have never felt the need to change. I can solve everything that turns up in a tenor part with that Bb/G setup.

/Tom

Thanks Tom! I wholeheartedly agree. [And even larger-bore single-valve tenors. I have Bb/G tenors with dual-bore slides (13.9 mm/14.3 mm) matched to 14.3 mm (ULTRA) valves and wrap bores. Designed to accept optional F crooks.] The G (natural) attachment loop fits neatly within the center-plane of the main bell loop. You don't need conventional bell cross bracing (other than the single brace across from the slide receiver) or a brace in the main bell tuning crook. Mechanical stability is maintained by tacking the fixed portion of the attachment loop to the bell and the gooseneck. Then the Gb or F tuning can be obtained with replacement crooks (that act as tuning slides, as usual) that "dog-leg" out to the side. An Eb crook can be inserted (without sticking way out the back) by using a so-called "German loop", sometimes used by René Hagmann in some of his wraps.

[johntarr]

I attach here one of my favourite warmups consisting of a chromatically descending series of minor thirds—played in a light swinging legato at a fast tempo (quarter note = 180)—in fact, to be played in a single breath entirely in lip slurs. With the Bb/G tuning, every note can be played on a different (SA or attachment) harmonic—without crossing another harmonic of the same family.

Those of you "minor-third doubters" might want to try this warmup on an attachment-less tenor or one with a "conventional" P4 attachment. Bass trombonists using inline dual-valves tuned Bb/F-G-"Eb" might want to try using just the finger-trigger-operated valve (in combination with SA positions, of course). Hint: there are some less-than-obvious combinations needed in order to get every note on a different harmonic. When I get a little more time (my wife is screaming at me to stop "wasting" time on this—and she may be right!), I'll notate my Bb/G "solution" to this.

I, for one, appreciate your time wasting, on this post and on others, regarding the question of F versus G attachments. Thank you, Sesquitone!

I’ve often wondered if the trombone were to be invented now, how it would look? Would there even be a trombone? As a teacher, I find it much harder to get kids to try the trombone after they’ve tried a valve instrument. Children playing valve instruments progress more quickly because their fingers are motorically more developed than their arms. Of course WE know that slides offer expressive qualities not available with valves, but try telling that to a six year old.

One could accept the constraints of the slide and make the best of it, as many fine players have done and do. One could spare themselves the difficulties of the slide altogether and use valves. And of course, a compromise is combining valve with slide. Considering alternatives to what the norm is can be a fruitful endeavor for those of us fortunate enough to live lives that allow for such folly. I find the possibilities with a G valve quite intriguing and may someday try to acquire such an instrument. The G valve with enough pull to go to F might be the best, but I don’t know if I could learn that.

Just because only a very few people use a G valve doesn’t mean it’s not a viable alternative. Bass trombonists seem to be a little more open to trying new ideas than tenor folk. Even if, after reading all these posts, you conclude that the F valve is the one, and right way, you can be thankful for feeling even more sure. There is no harm in considering alternatives to the status quo as long as no one loses an eye.

With respect,

John

[BGuttman]

The trombone slide (and trumpet slide) were invented almost 500 years before the valve. So slides go back a long way.

Make the trombone today? Probably the valve trombone. As you point out, valves offer a great degree of nimbleness. For beginners intonation doesn't really apply. For those who really want to adjust, we would have valve "triggers" like on the trumpets. For that matter, why make it the odd shape it is. The Brass Band tenor horn is almost the same bore and bell size, is more compact, and would probably be what we would use.

Let's face it. The Waldhorn (valveless horn) got rotary valves instead of a slide. It became a lot less cumbersome to tote around a single instrument instead of the pile of crooks that used to be a standard accessory for horn players.

[Finetales]

Why is the violin, with infinite tuning viable and popular while the soprano trombone falls flat? Up the neck, intonation on the violin gets to be more challenging. The partials on both the violin and soprano trombone are getting more closely spaced. But the hand on the violin is moving towards the player and the violin player can see down on the neck (at least when learning the positions).

A more accurate comparison would be soprano trombone and treble violin/violino piccolo. Soprano trombone isn't rare because the slide positions are closer together (having owned a soprano and played some others, I would call it a feature, not a bug), but because it is much smaller than the default instrument (tenor) and there's no rep for it, so there's no reason to learn it. It also sounds very different, and it's not a sound anyone is wishing for more of. All this is also true of the treble violin.

Whether the correlation of the violin and soprano trombone holds up in its entirity, the players who prefer G attachments on small bore trombones are swimming against the stream. The original reason for the F attachment was to add range to bass notes, making the trombone more like the cello in voice.

The F attachment became the standard because the alternative was the E attachment, which is just worse in every way. I doubt anybody tried a G or Gb attachment, because the whole point was to cover bass trombone parts. For that purpose the F valve is good, but you don't even really get an in-tune low C with it on most horns so it's not great. No single-valve solution is, unless you're starting with an instrument lower than Bb.

Anyway, since then the F attachment has been the default. But if those early makers and players had collectively decided that the E or even Eb valve was better, we might all be playing those today and having people argue that since nobody uses an F attachment, it must be pointless. As I already mentioned once, the only reason almost nobody plays a single G valve is that almost nobody has ever had the chance to try one. Same reason why almost nobody plays an ascending C valve. But that has nothing to do with how practical those tunings are.

Go to ITF or ATW, how many single G valves or ascending C valves are available to try out? I'd bet money that if an established maker brought some horns with valves tuned in keys other than F, some players might give it a shot. You can't make a choice if there's no choice to make.

If you special order a tenor with a bore .500 or less, then why not order it with a valve in G and an additional slide to put it in F.

This is the way to do it. Adding an extension (or alternate slide for F) would be easy and allow you to get the advantages of both and pick the tuning that works best with what's on your stand. Us bass trombonists learn at least three valve tunings...it's not hard, trust me!

My soprano trombone had a rotor with four different slides that allowed you to put the valve in A, Ab, G (with pull to Gb), and F. It was really cool to have all those options...and really necessary on that horn since the slide only had about 5 positions!

[AtomicClock]

My soprano trombone had a rotor with four different slides that allowed you to put the valve in A, Ab, G (with pull to Gb), and F. It was really cool to have all those options...and really necessary on that horn since the slide only had about 5 positions!

I've never seen "soprano trombone" and "really necessary" in the same paragraph before!