Outer slide: Sleeves vs. No Sleeves vs. "extruded?"

[ttf_anonymous]

Having played several different models over the years, I have noticed--among other things--many differences in the way manufacturers build the outer slide closest to the hand brace.

Most models have the nickel sleeves, to varying lengths on either tube. Sometimes the nickel sleeves are the same length, and sometimes one of the sleeves is longer, usually on the tube going into the bell.

Sometimes the lightweight slides (such as the Shires TW47LW) have no sleeves, and seem to simply be ordinary brass or nickel tubes of a consistent bore and thickness the entire length of the handslide on both tubes.

And then there are other outer slides which I've heard are called extruded. These are generally made of one material and seem to have a thicker section of brass where sleeves might usually be. I have spoken to Courtois rep, Don Arnato, about these differences a little bit. But I wanted to see what opinions others have about these different types of builds.

When I first noticed the extruded slide, it was on an older, unlacquered Courtois 420BT. I immediately noticed the resonance and response of the horn. I did a little back and forth between this slide and bell and a brand new Courtois, the 420BO. The 420BO had nickel sleeves and was lacquered. The combination I seemed to prefer was the extruded, unlacquered slide coupled with the lacquered bell (though I was not as big a fan of that particular rotor valve).

Here is a link to a Courtois page mentioning the different slides: http://www.a-courtois.com/en/instruments/straight-tenor/legend-420/

"Four slide models are available for the Legend 420 trombones. Standard slides are yellow brass with nickel sleeves for a powerful stable tone, yellow brass with extrusions for a livelier and more vibrant response, ultralight brass with a soldered sterling lead pipe, for a lightweight clear centered tone, and nickel silver slides for their broader and more powerful playing qualities."

Thoughts on these different types of outer slides?

[ttf_daveyboy37]

Extruded or "Drawn-in" over sleeves have been around for some time now. I have seen them mainly on Yamaha and King trombones made in the past 30-40 years.

I know that some people have soldered-on over sleeves removed in order to lighten a slide, and to make it sound more "alive", as the soldered-on over sleeves due increase the resistance to vibration. They also however help strengthen the slide when it is in the farther positions.

Historically, inner slide tubes used to have soldered-on stockings before they started using ones that were drawn-in / extruded. It then took a while before the outer slide tubes got the same type of treatment, and even with the extruded outers, there will still be additional ferrules added to the end of the slide.

[ttf_Euphanasia]

This raises another issue: how are they extruded without changing the inner diameter of the tube?

This is especially notable with inners--even though the stockings are significantly larger than the legs, the inner diameter remains the same. This is also true of every outer I've ever measured that had contiguous expanded handle sections.

[ttf_BGuttman]

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jun 26, 2017, 09:51AMThis raises another issue: how are they extruded without changing the inner diameter of the tube?

This is especially notable with inners--even though the stockings are significantly larger than the legs, the inner diameter remains the same. This is also true of every outer I've ever measured that had contiguous expanded handle sections.

My guess would be that you would partially extrude the tube, then change the outer extrusion die to one with a larger ID.  Exactly how you would do this I leave to the Mechanical Engineers to explain (I'm a Chemical Engineer).

[ttf_timothy42b]

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 26, 2017, 10:41AMMy guess would be that you would partially extrude the tube, then change the outer extrusion die to one with a larger ID.  Exactly how you would do this I leave to the Mechanical Engineers to explain (I'm a Chemical Engineer).

Think I'd run the tube through the big die first, then part way through the little die.  You'd get a little longer, too, either allow for that or cut it off.

But that's just me thinking out loud, I don't know how they do it. 

[ttf_Horn Builder]

that's pretty much it, Tim.

M

[ttf_JohnL]

"Draw-in" oversleeves are pretty much stockings, just on the outer tube.

[ttf_conn88plyr]

I think you will find there are two main reasons a manufacturer chooses to have over sleeves or not, those being performance and cost.  As Davyboy37 mentioned, the design of the slide, including outer tube material and oversleeves, can have an impact on not only slide speed but timbre, response and slotting; I typically find that a standard slide with brass outers and nickel oversleeves slots a bit easier with a darker sound and more core but a lightweight slide lightens the color and may have a bit more flexibility.
   Often times cost may play a factor as well.  It is almost expected that student trombones will not have oversleeves, as well as quite a few intermediate models.  The extra material and time understandably adds to the overall labor and cost.

[ttf_Matt K]

I actually do generally like slides with the "stockings" on the outers, though I prefer lighter weight slides in general. They often seem to me like an in-the-middle type weight between a regular weight oversleeve and a lightweight slide without them.

[ttf_PhilE]

The puzzle is - how are nickel silver over sleeves in a position to affect the sound coming out of the bell when the top end of the outer slide doesn't come into contact with the air stream inside.

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

Anything and everything can make a difference; it doesn't have to be "in contact  with the airstream."  The different materials and sleeve styles play differently even in 1st position.

[ttf_kbiggs]

I can't picture what a "yellow brass [slide] with extrusions" looks like. Does this mean that the open ends of the outer slide tubes are slightly smaller or larger in diameter than the bulk of the slide tube? Anyone have a picture or a link of the Courtois or any other maker's extruded slide?

[ttf_elmsandr]

Quote from: kbiggs on Today at 06:49 AMI can't picture what a "yellow brass [slide] with extrusions" looks like. Does this mean that the open ends of the outer slide tubes are slightly smaller or larger in diameter than the bulk of the slide tube? Anyone have a picture or a link of the Courtois or any other maker's extruded slide?
Look at almost any student model horn.  They almost all have slightly thicker handgrip areas.

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_Doug Elliott]

The "open ends" aren't larger.  The metal is thicker.  Exactly like the stockings, but on the other end.  It's done to strengthen the handgrip area for two reasons - so the soldered joints of the handgrip don't distort, and so if you drop your slide the end of the tubes don't get bent.  Serves the same purposes as oversleeves.

Yes, the particular details can affect the sound, but it's also structural - that would be a big potential damage area without extra support.

[ttf_daveyboy37]

Quote from: kbiggs on Today at 06:49 AMI can't picture what a "yellow brass [slide] with extrusions" looks like. Does this mean that the open ends of the outer slide tubes are slightly smaller or larger in diameter than the bulk of the slide tube? Anyone have a picture or a link of the Courtois or any other maker's extruded slide?
Wonder no longer! The yamaha 640/620 has such a slide:

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ysl-620_640/index.html

[ttf_kbiggs]

Got it! Thanks!

[ttf_kbiggs]

Got it! Thanks!