Thoughts on Yamaha bones?

[HugoThatTromboneGuy1234]

Just was wondering what the trombone community was thinking about yamaha bones, still wondered if they have a bad rep or not. Thinking about getting a YSL-640.

[BGuttman]

They are great instruments. I played a 682 (predecessor of the 620) for 30 years in orchestra and community band.

The only people who might not like them really don't need to ask this question.

[hyperbolica]

Yamaha has fans and detractors. Most of the Yamahas I've owned have been ok, but seemed to lack personality. That's probably because I'm a Conn fan, addicted to that Conn vibe.

I've owned a 61x bass, a 350c, 651, 691and a 455. I actually liked the 455. I had the 455 at the same time as I had a 32h and a 79h, and although the 455 was nice, it wasn't as nice as the Conns. I also had a 891z which was also a really nice horn, but I had it at the same time I had a Shires MD+, and the Shires was a bit better. For that size, I've settled on a Getzen 3508..

The lesson here for me has been that Yamahas are nice, but when you compare them to anything else, the other horn usually wins.

Interestingly I have the same complaints about Shires as I have about Yamaha, so take from that what you will.

Plus, there is a distinction between new and old Yammies. If you go back far enough, the horns get worse. I'm not sure when that point is, but I'd guess its in the 1980s or 90s.

[BGuttman]

...

Plus, there is a distinction between new and old Yammies. If you go back far enough, the horns get worse. I'm not sure when that point is, but I'd guess its in the 1980s or 90s.

It's before the mid 1980s, which is when I got my 682. There was a plating problem with the chrome plate on the slide. Not all Yammies had the problem, but the bad ones would blister and break resulting in a major abrasive digging into the outer slide. The problem was gone by the time I bought my horn according to Bob Osmun (who sold it to me).

[harrisonreed]

90's pro Yamahas, pre-Xeno lineup, are very very good. I had a 6XX one from the mid 90's and everything was just right about it. Those seemed to take inspiration from Conn horns. With the Xeno line, at least the tenors I've tried, they went in a Bach direction and the bell is heavier and soldered. Not my cup of tea.

Also the Xenos with the F attachment that is miles long but you can't actually pull it very much farther -- I don't know about that idea either.

[tbonesullivan]

Depends on which ones you are talking about. The "Z" line of small bore horns are very well regarded. The current 600 series is also nice, but they play "big". The tuning slide on all of them is larger diameter than a Bach 36/42 tuning slide.

Try before you buy is something I would definitely recommend. The current orchestral tenor lineup has its fans, but they aren't for everyone. The three trombones in the lineup are also fairly different, and many like the YSL-882 better than the 882O or 882OR.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

To their credit, Yamaha attempts to be consistent in an industry that is known to be inconsistent. I have been told several times by their sales reps that a (fill in with a Yamaha model #) bought in Boston should play exactly the same as a (same model #) that is bought in Los Angeles. The problem is that it is absolutely impossible to achieve that because the process of making a bell involves hand hammering, which can never be done identically on multiple horns.

So…….just like other brands, I have found some Yamahas to be incredible players and others to be less than satisfying to play. I once played a YSL-882OR at a show that was so good that it was hard to put it down. I regret that I did not buy it because I have not found any of that model that played like that ever since.

I disagree that the older models are not as good. I have a 1977 Yammie euphonium model YEP-321S that I put a large shank mouthpiece receiver and leadpipe on and it is a world class instrument……absolutely a joy to play. I also remember (about 20 years ago) trying a late 70s - early 80s YSL-643 that blew my mind (another instrument that I regret I did not buy). It was effortless to play over 4+ octaves.

As a technician, my biggest problem with Yamaha brass instruments is the assembly process. From the student instruments all the way up to their 800 custom series, there are frequent joints and connections that are full of tension. They make their parts to “fit exactly” and trust that to make everything line up. The problem is that the instrument assembly process introduces all sorts of variables that can make things “not true.” Thus, many places on the instruments have alignments that are not parallel or are squeezed together before soldering. If you end up with a great Yamaha, it is probably because they got lucky at the factory and parts aligned perfectly or “according to their plan.”

[sirisobhakya]

Yamaha trombones can be considered as being divided into 2 “lineages”: the original Yamaha and the Xeno Yamaha, not counting the jazz Z line.

The original Yamaha consists of all the horns from 600 series downward (600, 500, 400, 300, and 200/100 which is not listed anymore), and also the JDA 800 series (currently consists of 820GII and 823). This lineage’s most obvious pro is ease of playing. No quirk, no fuss. Air goes in, sound comes out. But the sound is described by some as “lighter”, “thinner”, “smaller”, or “lacks personality”, whatever that means.

The other lineage is the Xeno line, which is designed and made to be more “Bach-like”; bigger, thicker, heavier. Some like them, some don’t. I use a Xeno bass myself, and I like my horn even after head-to-head comparison with Shires, K&H, B&S, Greenhoe, and others. The new 835 I tried are also great. But I don’t quite like the tenors, except maybe the 825.

One thing I trust Yamaha is the mechanical aspect. Their slide and valve are excellent. I have yet to play a new Yamaha that has a less than 10/10 slide.

[Burgerbob]

One further distinction I would bring up:

Yamaha instruments outside the Z and Xeno lines are the “consistent” ones. I have played multiples of the 613 bass and 8130 bass, and other than cosmetic differences from different owners, were basically indistinguishable from each other.

The modern hand-hammered bell instruments are simply not as consistent, much more in line with any of the other top makers. This means you get world beater-level instruments… and also awful instruments.

[harrisonreed]

Aidan: "if you don't like the awful Xeno, try the "beater-level" Xeno!" (Paraphrased)

Yamaha:



I agree 100% about the 90's horns being super consistent!

[WilliamLang]

I'm a big fan of Yamaha horns. For terns, I think that their feedback to the player is different than Shires, Edwards et al, but the sound to the listener is as good or at least about the same as those manufacturers at a much more reasonable price.

I get why people say they don't feel like they have character, but again, to me, this is a feedback issue, and also a "do you actually play with character" issue rather than a horn issue.

[henrysa]

Thinner, smaller, lacks personality?....I have been told(and it appears) James Pankow plays a 691 on the road. His sound always gives me goose bumps! So I bought one. I sound just like him...except my tone is a little thinner...and smaller...and lacks personality...and I couldn't be happier.

[Bach5G]

I shouldn’t have sold my 691.

[Finetales]

They all play easily and have great valves and ergonomics. How they sound is personal, but I feel like them being nice, easy players (regardless of what you think of the sound) is a pretty universal opinion.

To me:

- YSL-882: one of the best large tenors there is. Has a magic to the sound and feel that the other Xeno large tenors lack.
- YSL-882O/OR: great horns, but boring.
- YSL-830/835: soul-suckingly boring. The 830 at Disney manages to take your input and turn it into negative decibels, it is really something. The two Indiana University have are much better, but still very boring. I get the impression that the 830 is probably the model that differs the most from horn to horn and it's not necessarily a universal Xeno issue. For example, I've played a few different 882s in different times/places and they all played exactly the same.
- YSL-891Z/897Z: can't stand them, including the screw bell models.
- YSL-448G: great horn, every bit a professional-level instrument despite its "intermediate" label.
- Altos: not the most interesting compared to a Laetzsch or something, but they play great and sound great. No complaints here, would gladly own one.
- Every single one of the current pro trumpets, horns, and euphs: fabulous in every way.

That's all I've tried apart from some of the older models Aidan's had, and of course the YSL-354. I would love to get my hands on an 882V, 825, 832, 835D, 610/620/630/640, and so many older/JDM models to try.

[harrisonreed]

It was the 648R that I had. Red brass two-piece bell, slightly wider handslide then a Conn, nickel crook. Semi-open F wrap.

Blew the modern Xenos out of the water in my book, but that design was going for a completely different thing.

[NotSkilledHere]

I don't think I can say anything that anyone else hasn't said. However, I do have a theory as to why people have to say about Yamaha horns sounding less interesting or not as distinctive as other major brands comes down to country of origin and the culture there. I could be wrong, but it's a theory

a lot of western culture revolves around being unique or being different from everyone around you. Or otherwise trying to be the best INDIVIDUAL you can be. And perhaps, that has certainly found its way into horns. Clearly everyone wants the golden sample horn that stands out heads and shoulders above the rest. perhaps you could call it a solo quality horn or something. you get the point.

a lot of eastern culture, particularly japan, is not about the individual or standing out as an individual. The culture there is certainly opening up with the modern generation but has very predominantly been about fitting in with the whole and not standing out or sticking out and being unique and different. It's almost looked down on to some extent to be different from the norm. and perhaps that has made its way into the Yamaha horn design. Perhaps they didnt intend for their horns to stick out from the rest. granted, golden samples still exist, but the majority of their horns probably arent designed to be solo sound-characteristic horns and more absorbed as a whole section rather in a band/orch, where maybe the horn isnt supposed to stick out and be unique (solos and lead may be the exception)

That being said, I also strongly believe whether a horn sounds interesting or not really has a lot to do with the player behind the horn and how the play and choose the mouthpiece. I dont think anyone here will disagree that the AVERAGE Yamaha pro horn or Xeno produces a great sound and is certainly up there, but I can agree that many of their horns aren't as interesting or have as many distinctive sound qualities as many western brands. Whether boring or not is fairly subjective but the consensus seems to be that at the very least, in the hands of many people, it doesn't really grab their attention.

Something to also take note on is that Yamaha horns of the modern era tend to feel dull or not as interesting from behind the bell while people in front of the bell will feel otherwise or at least like it more than you. This particularly seems to be the case with many Xeno horns.

I am a Yamaha lover admittedly, but I do find their horns better as a whole section rather than a solo horn. If I wanted to play lead or a solo, id consider the Yamaha but definitely look at a bunch of other horns first. together, they make a fantastic uniform section. Individually, admittedly not the best solo horns.

I dont think they make a BAD horn anywhere, except for the occasional dud, but everyone makes those. That being said, I think a lot of people who are spending top-of-the-line horn money are looking for more, and by more i mean looking for horns that have a special quality or zing to them and might be a great solo horn or something rather than a horn that will sound great next to 3-4 other of the exact same horn at the back of an orch or band where they aren't the priority.

just my thoughts.

[sirisobhakya]

- YBL-830/835: soul-suckingly boring. The 830 at Disney manages to take your input and turn it into negative decibels, it is really something. The two Indiana University have are much better, but still very boring. I get the impression that the 830 is probably the model that differs the most from horn to horn and it's not necessarily a universal Xeno issue. For example, I've played a few different 882s in different times/places and they all played exactly the same.

From my recent experience, the issue with the 830 seems to be more of a feedback problem, i.e. in the front VS behind the bell.

I normally play with my former school band (graduated 17 years already but still help teach and play with current students). I play at my comfortable volume, meaning the volume I can hear myself among the band. When recorded, I always stand out. I dismissed this as the middle and high schooler cannot keep up with my power, or that I just play too loud myself, and I didn’t think much more of it. They cannot balance well by themselves anyway.

But last month I went to Thailand International Trombone Festival, and I tried my horn side-by-side with many other horns. All while other people are trying 10+ horns around me in a reception hall no larger than a small auditorium. The 830 just DISAPPEARED. But my friends standing in the front of the bell said they could hear me really well, if a little brighter and more compact than other horns I tried.

Also, I just played in a band with almost 150 members. Again, at the volume I can hear myself, the conductor said I am much too loud. In a trombone ensemble (same event, different band), I can barely hear myself, to the point that I was worried that the bass line cannot be heard well (we played pop songs). But in the recording I can hear myself quite clearly, with a well-defined edge and presence.

Is this a good thing? No I don’t think so. But is it a bad thing? If you know the horn and can adjust, the horn is not boring or “soul-sucking” at all, quite the opposite, if only from the front.

I tried the horn side-by-side with the 835GD yesterday. The 835GD seems to have the same problem: boring behind, loud in front. But the 835GD is larger, albeit according to the Yamaha staff, so take it with a (large) grain of salt.

The point that I cannot agree more is that the 830 seems to be very inconsistent in terms of sound and playability. Play-tested 3-4 of them and they aren’t only all over the map, some even jump out of the map completely. But I have read that this problem extends to the YBL-613H (the predecessor of the 830 - pre-Xeno) as well. Maybe too many weld points?

The two 835D I tried also vary, but not at the same level as the 830. The two 835GD I tried are quite consistent.

[harrisonreed]

The 830 is one of the quietest, unresponsive basses I've ever played. I agree with Finetales, that horn takes your energy and deletes it into the ether. It's one thing for someone standing in front of your bell to say they could hear it, but something else entirely for the audience to hear it further away. The horn has to be fun to play and the 830 is not fun to play at all, "sound out front", which there isn't much of, be damned. The only way I could make it work in concert was to tape the shank of the mouthpiece, add weight to the bell, and pray.

[sirisobhakya]

A lot of eastern culture, particularly japan, is not about the individual or standing out as an individual. The culture there is certainly opening up with the modern generation but has very predominantly been about fitting in with the whole and not standing out or sticking out and being unique and different. It's almost looked down on to some extent to be different from the norm. and perhaps that has made its way into the Yamaha horn design. Perhaps they didnt intend for their horns to stick out from the rest. granted, golden samples still exist, but the majority of their horns probably arent designed to be solo sound-characteristic horns and more absorbed as a whole section rather in a band/orch, where maybe the horn isnt supposed to stick out and be unique (solos and lead may be the exception)

Agree. The sound concept of Japanese ensembles is to blend everything into "the band". Except for solo passages, the ideal is that the audience should hear the "mix" of the then-playing sections, not the sections "playing together". I think, and I may be very wrong, that this sound concept is not unlike that of British brass bands. But the British brass band one is easier since almost all instruments are conical brass.

The Xeno however, as many have said before, is patterned after Bach horns, with more western-leaning concept. And some are DIFFICULT to blend.

[sirisobhakya]

The 830 is one of the quietest, unresponsive basses I've ever played. I agree with Finetales, that horn takes your energy and deletes it into the ether. It's one thing for someone standing in front of your bell to say they could hear it, but something else entirely for the audience to hear it further away. The horn has to be fun to play and the 830 is not fun to play at all, "sound out front", which there isn't much of, be damned. The only way I could make it work in concert was to tape the shank of the mouthpiece, add weight to the bell, and pray.

The conductor who said I am too loud is quite far away in the front of the band . A recording from another event, taken from the back of a large (capacity 3,500) auditorium, also captured my sound (among almost 300-soul wind band with 3-4 "blastissimo"-attitude bass trombones) really well. Why do I know it's me? Because I made mistakes and I can hear it distinctly

I am not defending my horn or Yamaha (I am saving to buy a new horn as well, but still a Yamaha ) but I don't quite agree that they are not responsive, at least for the audience. For the player, though, I can understand the "not fun to play" reasoning. My 830 is fun to play at louder dynamics, and at that dynamics the horn is too loud for the band already.

Or do I just have an exception?

[harrisonreed]

Or do I just have an exception?

I believe you have an exception. If the 830 in the videos you posted was yours, then it did sound good!

You bring up a good point -- are all the 830s made in Japan or are some made in the US or China?

[Burgerbob]

Like I said above, they are inconsistent- I have played a couple 830s that were in the top 5 percent of basses I've ever played.

[sirisobhakya]

Or do I just have an exception?

I believe you have an exception. If the 830 in the videos you posted was yours, then it did sound good!

Great. Now it is even more difficult decision for me whether I should sell my 830 and get a 835D or not

It is mine, but with a gold brass tuning slide and a counterweight, both of which I now removed, so the horn is now a normal 830. But the sound doesn’t change much, just a liiiitle bit brighter and more open, guaranteed jointly by my teacher and another junior who also plays bass trombone.

[sirisobhakya]

You bring up a good point -- are all the 830s made in Japan or are some made in the US or China?

At least for what I know, all are made in Japan. All 600 series upward are all made in Japan.

However, I think some selections are involved, not unlike German horn maker like Alexander who, supposedly, keeps great ones for top artists in Germany and export the “less great” (but still good) ones.

My 830 was bought in Hiroshima. I think that plays a part, maybe even a large one.

[Finetales]

From my recent experience, the issue with the 830 seems to be more of a feedback problem, i.e. in the front VS behind the bell.

[...]

If you know the horn and can adjust, the horn is not boring or “soul-sucking” at all, quite the opposite, if only from the front.

With the specific 830 that I was referring to, it wasn't just me...other players around me noticed a night-and-day increase in volume/presence and color when I switched back from the 830 to my personal bass trombone. And this wasn't just a one-off experiment, I played that 830 all day for a couple of weeks while my horn was in the shop.

Years ago I borrowed an 830 for a couple of months while I was in between bass trombones. Believe me, I have spent a ton of time on the 830 and know it very well. The way you describe your 830, I am certain it's a great one and an entirely different experience to play. But nothing you describe about your 830 can be said about the 3 830s I have extensive experience with, whose problems are far worse than just not having good feedback behind the bell. As Aidan said, they are inconsistent.

[NotSkilledHere]

as far as I know, all Xeno's are made in japan. I think Xenos and Customs are the only horn lines truly all made in japan now.

[Finetales]

Also, I was just on the Yamaha Japan website and they now list the YSL-882II, YSL-882OII, YSL-882ORII, all labeled as new products for release in September 2024. They haven't made it to the American website yet.

Very excited to try those!

[sirisobhakya]

Also, I was just on the Yamaha Japan website and they now list the YSL-882II, YSL-882OII, YSL-882ORII, all labeled as new products for release in September 2024. They haven't made it to the American website yet.

Very excited to try those!

The change should be the linkage only as far as I can tell. Double minibal (finally) replacing traditional single minibal-double pivot linkage, with cylindrical, black plastic thumb rest like other makers.

Oh… and the case color is changed from brown to black.

[tbonesullivan]

The change should be the linkage only as far as I can tell. Double minibal (finally) replacing traditional single minibal-double pivot linkage, with cylindrical, black plastic thumb rest like other makers.

Oh… and the case color is changed from brown to black.

Reminds me of the YBL-612II - I think the change was the split linkage. I will say Yamaha definitely got some serious mileage out of the double pivot thumb lever. All of mine have the adjustable pad on it, which will fit any of the 600 series horns made since the early 90s, and possibly earlier.

As for my 830, I honestly don't know if it's a "bad one" or a "good one", but I don't get any complaints, have fun playing it, and do sometimes get told to tone it down a bit. I don't notice any real difference in the amount of power I have to use to get a sound with my other two basses, though they are also both Yamahas.

[chouston3]

I have a Yamaha 891z that I really enjoy playing. Before that horn, I played Bach and Edwards horns.

The yamaha does everything that I need it to do and it does it the same way each time.

The consistency on that horn is a major plus.

My one complaint is that I don't get a lot of feedback from behind the horn. When I want to do an A/B test with my leadpipes or mouthpieces, I have to set up my zoom recorder because I really can't make a decision from behind the horn.

[RJMason]

I wanted a new shiny small bore last summer and bought the 891ZD a year ago, after trying it against an Edwards, a Greenhoe, a Getzen, and my old Bach 8. The Edwards was by far the easiest to play and super zippy, but the Yamaha had a vibe that piqued my curiosity. In my 20s I wrote off Yamaha, didn’t like the vibe, boring, dull, etc. but times have changed!

It was a lengthy adjustment period, several months in fact. The horn does not play like a 3B. My intonation was kind of all over the place (super sharp) and I couldn’t find the slots. I almost got rid of it, but decided to commit to the horn and learn it.

Once it finally clicked, things got so much easier. And now I can switch back to other horns, return to the Yamaha and it’s an old friend. I feel that it’s an incredibly solid instrument. Sound is rich and full, projection with the screw collar is unmatched, my slide positions have adjusted so I can bend up and use vibrato in new expressive ways. I play more accurately in tune because of the instrument. My extreme registers have improved because they actually come out on this horn without messing with my air or embouchure to force them out.

The player feedback is not very good compared to a 3B a 6H, and especially a set back Bach. This is my main issue with the horn. But from the other side of the bell it is a dream.

I think Yamaha should change the mouthpiece receiver set up in the lead pipes. Many mouthpiece brands fit differently than those vintage horns listed above. I had to switch mouthpieces in order to find something that clicked well with the Yamaha (Greg Black, highly recommend this combo).

My horn has a more refined sound than a 3B (played one for 15 years) to me. It doesn’t narrow when pushed like a 6H. When I play gently it reminds me of a Bach. When I roar the sound stays round and pure. To me it’s kind of like a Bach/King hybrid. There are some situations where I prefer my old Bach 8, but the Yamaha is just way easier to play. And I think I might prefer a 6H for small bore classical sounds, but I’m sure with the right mouthpiece the ZD could yield promising results.

Highly recommend this horn. I think it plays easier and sounds as good or better than my former Williams and Minick small bores. This fall I would like to experiment with after market lead pipes. The LA pipe sounds a little better to my ears, but I cannot figure out how to play loud and maintain steady articulation. The NY pipe lets you blow more, but the sound is a tad bit hollower. Something in the middle ground would be helpful!

I also have a 612 Bass that Josh Landress converted to screw bell and updated the paddles and leadpipe with modern Xeno parts. An amazing dependent for a doubler like me. 80% 62H sound for thousands less.

Yamaha makes better instruments than the American legacy brands, full stop. I have piece of mind knowing that if something were to happen to my horn I can find a replacement that will play very close to what I have now.

I think it’s useful to have a Yamaha in the stable. The good ones achieve a sound that is highly sought after in commercial settings. I’d like to explore some of the retro Yamaha offerings to see if there’s anything to them.

[chouston3]

It was a lengthy adjustment period, several months in fact. The horn does not play like a 3B. My intonation was kind of all over the place (super sharp) and I couldn’t find the slots. I almost got rid of it, but decided to commit to the horn and learn it.

Once it finally clicked, things got so much easier. And now I can switch back to other horns, return to the Yamaha and it’s an old friend. I feel that it’s an incredibly solid instrument. Sound is rich and full, projection with the screw collar is unmatched, my slide positions have adjusted so I can bend up and use vibrato in new expressive ways. I play more accurately in tune because of the instrument. My extreme registers have improved because they actually come out on this horn without messing with my air or embouchure to force them out.

The player feedback is not very good compared to a 3B a 6H, and especially a set back Bach. This is my main issue with the horn. But from the other side of the bell it is a dream.

I completely agree with this. Coming from my Olds Super, my intonation was all over the place with the Yamaha.

It has taken me awhile to get my intonation right.

I started on the New York pipe because people said it sounded better. I have switched to the LA pipe because it gives me a fuller sound and more flexibility but my articulation is not as good.

I am waiting for the lead pipe from O'Malley brass or I might pick up one of the brass ark leadpipes. I am looking for something between the LA Pipe and the New York Pipe.

[fsgazda]

I'm sure that I posted this before in another Yamaha thread, but I am a big fan of the 882OR and the old 613H bass. Never liked the 830 and haven't tried the 835 yet.

I had a student try a bunch of horns at the American Trombone Workshop last March. He didn't like the Edwards 396, and ultimately narrowed the list down to the Shires Alessi, Yamaha 882, and Bach 42AF. He was leaning strongly to the Yamaha, but the rest of the studio unanimously voted for the Bach in a blind listening situation.

[OneTon]

I have commented before. My 697Z was an adequate 2B substitute. My 0.500-inch bore, 653 was very good as well. Both seemed to develop finicky slide syndrome after 15-20 years. I have never sussed out the 697Z problem. If I take It to a few rehearsals before a gig, it never makes it to the gig. The 653 probably has a corrosion or red rot issue. Yamaha does not support legacy production. I got lucky and found an orphaned NOS slide for it. The 653 is back in business through no fault if Yamaha. I like the horns.

[HugoThatTromboneGuy1234]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all of your feedback. I went into the city to try one the other day and in my personal opinion I loved the horn heaps, I also tried a conn 52h. I loved the 52h however for me I felt I got a warmer sound on the Yammie compared to the 52h based on how I play, the Yammie was also quite a bit less. I ended up leaving with the Yammie, I absolutely love my new yamaha ysl-640.

[atopper333]

Congratulations on the new horn! Always wanted to try a 640, they look like an awesome horn!

[tbonesullivan]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all of your feedback. I went into the city to try one the other day and in my personal opinion I loved the horn heaps, I also tried a conn 52h. I loved the 52h however for me I felt I got a warmer sound on the Yammie compared to the 52h based on how I play, the Yammie was also quite a bit less. I ended up leaving with the Yammie, I absolutely love my new yamaha ysl-640.

The YSL-640 is a great horn. If you want one horn to play just about anything on, it's one of the best choices out there. It's a big medium horn, or a medium big horn. Enjoy it!

[Bach5G]

I had a 620 bass that I liked a lot and always wanted to try the 620 tenor.

Yamaha doesn’t market these horns very well.

[tbonesullivan]

I had a 620 bass that I liked a lot and always wanted to try the 620 tenor.

Yamaha doesn’t market these horns very well.

They really don't market their musical instruments aggressively at all in the U.S. Market. You would think a company whose logo is literally three tuning forks would be more into advertising it's musical instrument line, but for some reason it isn't. It could be that they really don't need to, as word of mouth helps a lot. They also do a LOT of school contracts. If you've got a large and well-funded Marching band program, and you want to get as much as possible from the same source, Yamaha's product line can't be beat, on paper at least.

[Burgerbob]

I cannot speak to the realities of their situation, but Yamaha strikes me as a company limited by supply, not demand. No point in marketing harder if they can't make the instruments fast enough.

[NotSkilledHere]

congratulations on your new horn!

I can't remember the last time I saw yamaha marketing that wasn't a motorcycle, jetski, or lexus/toyota engine.

[OneTon]

What would better marketing look like? I have not seen any television, radio, of newspaper advertisements for any band music instruments. Any hype is created by posters of players or some clinics at larger high schools and universities, supplied through local retailers. Yamaha demands a fairly high inventory turnover to qualify as a retailer. Yamaha or the retailer has a contract to supply the larger state university undergraduates with new intermediate instruments to satisfy instruction requirements. After typically 1 and never more than 2 semesters the instruments are refurbished and offered to local students at reasonable though not bargain basement prices. I have heard that these are pretty good instruments. Though John Packer and some other Chinese imports are making inroads with cheaper instruments, Yamaha is still recognized for robust damage tolerant student instruments. KC has some retailers stocking professional instruments but professional instruments are few and far between in Wichita. Whatever Yamaha has for a business plan, it seems to be working.

[Bach5G]

Yam advertises the 620 bass as being of interest to budget conscious band directors.

[sirisobhakya]

Congratulations to the OP on having the new horn!

They also do a LOT of school contracts. If you've got a large and well-funded Marching band program, and you want to get as much as possible from the same source, Yamaha's product line can't be beat, on paper at least.

This policy returns to bite them in the back in Thailand. Yamaha has long been considered as "school horns" here, student-level. There were many people, including my teacher, who would choose Bach or other American brands instead of Yamaha no matter the circumstances. Still no problem for Yamaha back in those days (I mean around 20 years ago), since for that level of quality they are the most affordable and reliable. Their marketing, as far as I know, has reflected that: in trade shows most horn they show are 600 series horns downward, sometimes only 400 series downward. 800 series horns are sparingly shown.

But now, larger schools have become more affluent, and have moved upmarket. Many higher-end schools have started to use horns from brands like K&H or even Edwards (I kid you not, some schools even march with K&H bass trombone). University students set their eye on Bach, Edwards, Shires, or even Thein. While in the lower end, Yamaha is squeezed up by made-in-China horns offering much cheaper horn with equal bling. And you can't deny that the quality of those horns, while still mostly inferior, has gotten much better. Less and less people want Yamaha as their "step-up" horn, while less and less schools and universities want their horn as well.

So I think, at least in Thailand, they have to start advertising more and try to position them as more "upmarket", promoting their high-end horns more. I have heard they have more success with the new Xeno YSL-825.

[OneTon]

Congratulations to the OP on having the new horn!

They also do a LOT of school contracts. If you've got a large and well-funded Marching band program, and you want to get as much as possible from the same source, Yamaha's product line can't be beat, on paper at least.

But now, larger schools have become more affluent, and have moved upmarket.

So I think, at least in Thailand, they have to start advertising more and try to position them as more "upmarket", promoting their high-end horns more. I have heard they have more success with the new Xeno YSL-825.

I respect your read on the attitude of school purchasing programs in Thailand. I would not hold my breath expecting Yamaha to change their marketing strategy. Every nation's business model can be unique. The US can be sloppy and subject to top management personalities who ignore business school philosophies. Cessna had several hundred, maybe a 1000 182 airplanes out on their flight line with no buyers before their management realized the market had slumped in 1985. Boeing is on the other end of the spectrum: They do not bring out a new airplane model without a first customer order. In 2001 they laid off half of their engineering workforce even though they knew that sooner or later European demand for a "stretched" 900 would dictate designing such a plane. When the first customer presented themselves a few years later, Boeing had to hire college graduates and train them. Germany had very high levels of pride among their craftsman in the Porsche plant. But Porsche was bleeding money. Some in the industry doubted that Porsche would get the mechanics and machinists to adopt the Toyota Production System. Their craftsman eventually rose to the challenge They realized they could still take great pride in an expanded skill set, and that Porsche could no longer exist as a "hand built" car.

Japanese businesses are very focused on return on investment and conservation of assets. I suspect that it is very difficult to rise to the level of craftsman for high end intruments built in Japan. Yamaha makes as many of the high end instruments as they can produce with the top level craftsman on hand. They sell them that year at prices reflecting a reasonable profit margin, and that is it. They do not price the instruments higher because they don't like inventory laying around, getting damaged, and becoming waste. They also may simply lack the storage space. Schools may have to use their budget every year or loose it the next. They can only justify buying a given number of instruments. Yamaha high end instruments may not use up their budget for a given year on one hand. On the other, Yamaha may appear to be indifferent about filling an order for instruments during a given year if Yamaha has already determined their production quota for that year.

Dealers in the US have to reach a certain inventory turnover before Yamaha will allow them to become an authorized retailer. The retailer gains access to contracts with local universities for intermediate instruments. Yamaha band instruments require very little "dealer prep" or rework for the dealer on receipt. It is not uncommon for Conn Selmer products to require close inspections and sometimes significant rework before delivering the instrument to the end user. Becoming a local retailer for Yamaha is not a matter of signing a contract for the purchase of so many Yamaha instruments for a year. First there is the minimum quota to be met. Then Yamaha will probably fill most orders for student instruments, most probably fill most orders for intermediate instruments, and allocate some professional instruments based on that year's Yamaha production. This drives the dealer to find something to fill excess local demand, either better quality Chinese instruments or perhaps an instrument line from a European supplier. So don't hold your breath for Yamaha to change, They have been around since 1897.

[WGWTR180]

Just was wondering what the trombone community was thinking about yamaha bones, still wondered if they have a bad rep or not. Thinking about getting a YSL-640.

Bad rep how?

[Pezza]

Good student & intermediate troms. YSL 456A are great for the price.
600 / 800 series tenors are OK, not great tho. I like the older ones better.
I don't like their basses.

Euphos on the other hand, I don't like their student & intermediate horns.
Love the pro YEP 641,YEP 642, YEP 842.

[dukesboneman]

My 1st Pro level small bore was a Yamaha 651. Loved it . Easy to play but lacked color, pretty much a one trick pony.
I love the Yamaha Basses, Euphoniums and Tubas. Incredible horns.
I now just bought a while ago a 641 (1975 closet horn) red Brass Bell and the rest of the horn is Nickel plated, .551 Bore. This thing plays like a dream
But my daily drivers are all Bach

[JohnL]

Just was wondering what the trombone community was thinking about yamaha bones, still wondered if they have a bad rep or not. Thinking about getting a YSL-640.

Bad rep how?

I saw that and wondered if the OP had been away from trombone for a long time. Back when Yamaha first started to make inroads in the US market, their reputation as far as durability was not great.

[atopper333]

Might be more along the lines of the common ‘sterile sound,’ ‘no depth,’ ‘feedback to player’ type comments which seem to be associated (I do believe unfairly) with Yamaha. A few years back, when thinking about going for a 640 or Bach 36B the consensus always seemed to be to go with the Bach due to a myriad of reasons from better resale value to big small horn vs. small big horn…etc…

I’ve also seen outstanding posts about Xeno horns, and some rather unflattering ones as well. I guess if reading the information available to search, it might seem as though they might still have a ‘bad rep.’

When taken in the greater context I think it’s the same with every brand…there are good and bad Bachs, Conns, and Yamahas…I still think so much more of it comes down to personal feedback to the player vs the equipment…but that’s a whole different topic!