Bordogni/Rochut metronome markings

[VJOFan]

In the last week, after decades of playing the Rochut transcriptions of Bordogni from the old school Carl Fischer edition with the colourful trombone drawings by feel and the way I had heard them and was taught them, I thought I’d put on the metronome at the suggested tempi.

What a difference a beat can make! Almost always the marked tempo is quite a bit faster than I was taught to play the etudes. Some of the studies get a little “fun” technically at a faster pace, but I finally get the belle canto.

I have to play much lighter at the faster paces and it sounds so much more like an operatic lyric tenor. The passed down to me slower tempos led me to making the etudes sound generally sad and heavy.

Taking things at different speeds is always interesting. Any thoughts on the tempo markings of the Rochut editions of Bordogni or other editions?

[AtomicClock]

FYI, David Schwartz has compiled a table of Bordogni's original tempi vs. Rochut's suggestions. Link is here: http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/

[Savio]

I don't know tempoes but this sounds very musical, relaxed and still very much in time. Not metronomic but it feels like it. And very vocal and singing. Sound and legato, just amazing. Maybe its good to practice Bordogni with metronome some times and then do it without? I believe in finding our own tempo but no stress.

Leif

[VJOFan]

Maybe I’m misunderstood. I’m not talking about metronome practice. I just took the suggested tempo on several etudes.

[Savio]

Sorry if I misunderstood. Can be interesting to see what Bordogni him self put as suggested tempo. I found most of the songs on IMSLP, and yes there is metronome markings on them. They are ment for singers so might not fit the trombone but worth to look at.

Leif

[boneagain]

I agree, Leif: worth looking at!

Alan Raph was not happy with all the players taking the lugubrious tempi. He described to me the environment in which Bordogni was working, and love-sick soul-searching was not the dominant element.

I agree with Alan that approaching these as a singer would is excellent exercise for both technique and, more importantly, musicality.

I find it very akin to the way you absorbed so much of the George Roberts approach to Tin Pan Alley tunes. They CAN be played almost any way. I think we get the most out of them at least starting off close to what the composer had in mind.

Regarding the other tempo comment: I found it instructive to play along with the David Schwartz accompaniments. I listened to recordings of me playing unaccompanied and was appalled by just how MUCH liberty I took with every "interpretive" element. I then started playing to keep right with the accompaniment. After that I played with how far I could "stray" for musical effect. After all that I found my unaccompanied samples much less embarrassing )

Hey, how about some Bordogni from you, Lief? Be a nice addition to your Roberts posts!

Dave

[hyperbolica]

I think the best example of the quicker tempo really changing the character of the etude is the second part of #60 of the first book. Its really an elastic rolling almost virtuosic piece thats so much fun to play, and I think naturally lends itself to the faster tempo. Its in a very good key, but you can't be afraid to 6th position. People focus a lot on the first 20, but many of the more advanced selections are well worth your time.

[izMadman]

Totally agree about #60, Hyperbolica! The faster tempo really brings out the virtuosic feel. And yeah, 6th position can be intimidating, but it's worth the challenge

[Savio]

So glad to hear from you Dave! The hardest thing there is to play a simple tune so well that everyone likes it. I think that's why we all play Bordogni? Douglas Yeo recorded some of them. Listened to one of those, fantastic! Don't know if they are available today. I think Bordogni is difficult, because you have to make choices about tempo, phrases, air and pace. And dynamic. But the most important thing is probably musicality. Anyway so glad you are still here Dave! Maybe I make a bordogni!

Leif

[Digidog]

I don't know about you, but I find it interesting and educating to play - and sometimes also learn - music both in much faster and much slower tempi than indicated. That way, a whole new dimension of the pieces can be found.

Play a slow piece very fast and practise how to make the phrases swing and transfer that to the original tempo; play a fast piece extremely slow and practise expression and phrasing and transfer that to the original tempo. At least I find that useful and productive.

Then if I am to perform anything, I am free to choose whatever tempo I want; the question is if other people want to listen to my chosen interpretation.

So, in the end, the tempo markings are only an indication of the composer's intentions and I can pick and choose. If that doesn't sound attractive to anybody else, I have to either change or live with it. I practise the Bordogni etudes in any tempo, depending on what I feel I want to get from playing them.

Try playing one of the slower ones in double tempo; that can be a tremendous challenge, or one of the faster really slow; which can be a good practise of phrasing.

[Macbone1]

I tend to think that at least approaching the Bordogni marked tempi is a good idea. Yes, it feels really fast. But IMHO there is too much of a tendency toward "heavy" playing in the trombone world nowadays. The general popularity of big mouthpieces and horns isn't helping. And of course, the instrument (actually its players) has a general reputation for pulling back on tempos in ensembles etc. Just ask anyone who has conducted a trombone choir.

Yes, trying to execute these Rochuts (Book II mainly) as marked takes a light and very focused approach. One must truly "play the line" to keep up, which is a good practice for all music.

[tbdana]

I tend to think that at least approaching the Bordogni marked tempi is a good idea. Yes, it feels really fast. But IMHO there is too much of a tendency toward "heavy" playing in the trombone world nowadays. The general popularity of big mouthpieces and horns isn't helping. And of course, the instrument (actually its players) has a general reputation for pulling back on tempos in ensembles etc. Just ask anyone who has conducted a trombone choir.

Yes, trying to execute these Rochuts (Book II mainly) as marked takes a light and very focused approach. One must truly "play the line" to keep up, which is a good practice for all music.

+1 to all of that

[Savio]

Hey, how about some Bordogni from you, Lief? Be a nice addition to your Roberts posts!

Dave


Ok Dave, my favourite Bordogni on my most singing trombone, Conn 70h from 1942. One thing is sure, I can never make it in tempo or tune. I admire the chicago singing approach. One question; Why do all trombonists play bordogni? It seems everyone play it no matter genre, age or level? And they are not exactly a "hit" or famous among singers? But its made for singers?


https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnFhNyFesmcYhsUn_XH ... A?e=UIhZi1

Leif

[BGuttman]

Leif, in the US we play Bordogni vocalises because Johannes Rochut (former Principal of the Boston Symphony Orchestra) arranged 120 of them for trombone. We found them to help develop musicianship. Bordogni's vocalises are used by some voice teachers.

Is there other music that can do the same thing as the Bordogni? Sure. It's just that we have adopted Rochut's version here.

[boneagain]

Hey, how about some Bordogni from you, Lief? Be a nice addition to your Roberts posts!

Dave

Ok Dave, my favourite Bordogni on my most singing trombone, Conn 70h from 1942. One thing is sure, I can never make it in tempo or tune. I admire the chicago singing approach. One question; Why do all trombonists play bordogni? It seems everyone play it no matter genre, age or level? And they are not exactly a "hit" or famous among singers? But its made for singers?
Leif

Leif,
At some point we have to setp back from tuning, tempo, etc. etc. and just hear the line. Some folks make it easier to follow the line. You are one of those folks
The place where the line fails for most folks is the downward cascades in the major section. I think this is one reason this one causes us to lose time.
Now, just to be clear, I would LOVE to have played this as beautifully as you did on this recording!!!!

That being said, as I listened I really wished you HAD lightened up a bit and gone for the metronome marking. The timbre you get out of that 70H sounds, to me, like it is begging to "let it go" and bring this up to a nice, danceable waltz tempo.

To me a lot of the point of the Bordogni vocalises is to encourage singers to get up to common dance tempos with a light voice, not slowing down into "heavy", and not overshooting into plain "pyrotechnics".

Another point is variation of color. One of my favorite examples of what I mean by that is Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing "Der Erlkonig" (I haven't figured out how to add the umlaut yet... maybe next year). As the the tonality switches from minor to major Fischer-Dieskau sings quite differently, exagerating the difference between the narrator and the false, bright promises of the King.

I would expect that Bordogni, operating in the highest levels at the Conservatoire in Paris, would have been well aware of the rising younger star (Schubert.)

Regardless, the number you played contains nice oppotunities to exploit minor/major tonality shifting.
And, to me, the major tonality sections pretty well define the ultimate musical aim of the composer.

But I dither.

I'm just going to put my headphones back on and enjoy your recording AGAIN

Thanks!
Dave

[Posaunus]

... "Der Erlkonig" (I haven't figured out how to add the umlaut yet... maybe next year).

On a Windows PC, you can simply use the keyboard shortcut (using the number pad)
alt 0246 = ö
Erlkönig

There are similar Windows keyboard shortcuts for many standard ASCII characters (as well as a bunch of others).

Examples:
alt 0128 = €
alt 0163 = £
alt 0177 = ±
alt 0188 = ¼
alt 0189 = ½ (e.g., 6½AL)
alt 0190 = ¾
alt 0214 = Ö
alt 0233 = é
alt 0241 = ñ
alt 0247 = ÷
alt 227 = π
alt 228 = Σ
alt 236 = ∞
alt 241 = ±
alt 243 = ≤
alt 246 = ÷
alt 247 = ≈
alt 277 = §

Frustratingly (for me) I cannot seem to find the alt code for "Not Equal" {≠}.
It's supposed to be alt 8800 - but that doesn't work on my Windows laptop.

[boneagain]

... "Der Erlkonig" (I haven't figured out how to add the umlaut yet... maybe next year).

On a Windows PC, you can simply use the keyboard shortcut (using the number pad)
alt 0246 = ö
Erlkönig

Very kind of you to help me out!
I've actually learned that for Linux and forgotten it several times.
I just don't use it often enough.

... quite a long fall from peeking and poking machine code into a Timex Sinclair ZX81!!

But thanks anyway!

Dave

[KWL]

On an iPhone or iPad screen keyboard, press and hold the character and you will be presented with options to choose from. The letter “o” can become ö or nine other options.

[AtomicClock]

On a Windows PC, you can simply use the keyboard shortcut (using the number pad)
alt 0246 = ö

On some windows PCs, this is disabled by the OEM. You have to do a regedit to enable it.
I just google Erlkonig, and copy/paste from the results.

[JoeAumann]

FYI, David Schwartz has compiled a table of Bordogni's original tempi vs. Rochut's suggestions. Link is here: http://www.nyx.net/~dschwart/

Excellent-Thanks for sharing this. I've long thought now, that it's important to note Bordogni's metronome markings. I was told by my teacher, Carl Lenthe, that in the Rochut/Carl Fischer ed. that the markings are largely Bordogni's, not Rochut's- and your reference confirms this. It's a shame they were left out of Michael Mulcahy's edition, for example.

It's useful to play the vocalises at the tempo Bordogni intended. So many times, trombonists just lumber through them at 84bpm! What a shame.

[Macbone1]

It's useful to play the vocalises at the tempo Bordogni intended. So many times, trombonists just lumber through them at 84bpm! What a shame.

Definitely. Trombone playing can tend to lumber too much as it is

[Savio]

Can be interesting to see what Bordogni him self put as suggested tempo. I found most of the songs on IMSLP, and yes there is metronome markings on them.
Leif

Strange thing is Jay Friedman do the exactly tempo from the original Marco Bordogni book. And it doesn't feel fast when listening him....

Leif, in the US we play Bordogni vocalises because Johannes Rochut (former Principal of the Boston Symphony Orchestra) arranged 120 of them for trombone. We found them to help develop musicianship. Bordogni's vocalises are used by some voice teachers.

BGuttman; I believe Bordogni is used all over the world; Trumpet, trombone, tuba, not so much by singers any more. And since you don't know, there are many editions. Not only the Johannes Rochut for tenor trombone. I have even made my own edition witch is in between the tuba/bass trombone and the Rochut edition. It is all in # key notation. Pdf is free is some want it.

"We found them to help develop musicianship. " Hope so BGutman!

Leif