Edit: Greenhoe Bach 50BG: when was this made?

[tbdana]

I played this one today and loved it.

IMG_3558.jpeg

This one belongs to a friend who said he'd sell it to me.

Do you have a Greenhoe 50B? What can you tell me about them? I really liked the way it played but I don’t know much about them. And I’m curious what a fair price would be for a used one in good condition. A quick google search didn’t turn up any for sale.

This one comes with an F attachment too, which I’d have little use for. When does anyone use a single F attachment for a bass trombone? I mean, sure it makes it lighter, but it also changes the sound and the way it plays. So, what's the real world usefulness?

[Burgerbob]

Not many Greenhoe 50s being sold about. They're being played, by and large. And also very expensive when they do move.

[BGuttman]

This one comes with an F attachment too, which I’d have little use for. When does anyone use a single F attachment for a bass trombone? I mean, sure it makes it lighter, but it also changes the sound and the way it plays. So, what's the real world usefulness?

A single trigger bass can be good in symphony orchestra (most bass trombone parts rarely go even to low C). It's fine for most high school level parts. Works great for concert band 3rd trombone parts. Can be useful for doublers who don't play bass trombone often. In general places where you need the bass trombone timbre but don't have a lot of need for low C or low B natural.

[tbonesullivan]

This one comes with an F attachment too, which I’d have little use for. When does anyone use a single F attachment for a bass trombone? I mean, sure it makes it lighter, but it also changes the sound and the way it plays. So, what's the real world usefulness?

Matt Walker, owner of M&W Custom Trombones, uses a single valve bass with a traditional wrap quite often, and has posted many pictures from gigs with it. He's also posted pictures of others that he has built for customers. So yes, there definitely is a use and market for them, especially if you are playing repertoire that doesn't go very low.

I play mostly orchestral stuff, and even in early 20th century compositions, I rarely need to use the second valve. Having a lighter horn without the second valve is something I have thought about for a while, and it's why now that I have a Yamaha YBL-822G, the "Doug Yeo" model, I usually keep it in single valve configuration.

I'm pretty sure that if you listed a Greenhoe Bach 50 single valve section for sale, you'd have people banging down the door.

[Dennis]

A single F is useful for 98%+ of the orchestral canon and about the same (maybe a bit less) of the wind ensemble rep). This is less true for works written after about 1990 and is certainly untrue of high level brass band. Brass band composers now write for bass trombone assuming that the instrument is fully chromatic from about F1 to Bb5 (or even higher), and you'd better have some technical capability.

My experience has been that the less mass you have on trombones, the more responsive they are.

I wish I had a friend who wanted to sell a Greenhoe 50BG when I was looking for a new bass. (I'm as happy as I can be with my Shires, but that Greenhoe would have been very tempting, especially if it included a single valve neckpipe.) I'm probably going to have a single valve neckpipe built for my Shires (does anyone have one they want to get rid of?), but I'll never bring it to a brass band rehearsal, unless I know the rep doesn't require a double plug horn.

[Burgerbob]

If you're going to have 1 bass, it better have two valves.

[SamBTbrn]

Matt Walker from M&W is also probably the one who built this trombone when he was at Greenhoe.

These horns from back when greenhoe were doing conversion are really amazing instruments. The Conn conversions with in-slide tuning seemed to be more popular/common (Matt would have say if that's right or not) then the Bach versions.

But if you're a fan on the Bach style bells and sound, it's hard to find a better playing and built version then those done by Greenhoe.

That it also comes both with 2 valves and the option to just be a single valve is pretty unique, definitely worth the money.

When would you use just the single valve... Hard to say. If I have to play Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven (classical to early romantic) on modern instruments I find a single trigger bass works great to help keep both the sound and my arms a bit lighter.

[SamBTbrn]

This is the price list from back in 2015
Adjust for inflation and all that etc.

Screenshot_20240804-100118.png

This is the old website thanks to the Wayback machine. (Oh the memories of hours spent drooling while looking at this website)
https://web.archive.org/web/20150209010 ... enhoe.com/

[Tbarh]

Slightly off tonic maybe, does a regular Bach 50 slide fot a Greenhoe bell section?

[Matt K]

The single valve allows for a tapered neckpipe. I have a shires single valve section and it is unbelievably responsive. If I’m doing light bass work and am absolutely sure I’m not going to miss the low B I’ll reach for it

[SamBTbrn]

The single valve allows for a tapered neckpipe. I have a shires single valve section and it is unbelievably responsive. If I’m doing light bass work and am absolutely sure I’m not going to miss the low B I’ll reach for it

How much did the single valve cost Matt, if you remember?

Best
Sam

[bitbckt]

I play a dependent 50BG from the pre-Schilke era. I’d love to have a single valve set for it. As others have amply stated, the second valve isn’t truly necessary much of the time.

I’ve been very happy with how it plays, which is ultimately what matters. As you’ve already played the horn and found that you like it, I say go for it. A fair price might be temporarily eye-watering though.

[Burgerbob]

Slightly off tonic maybe, does a regular Bach 50 slide fot a Greenhoe bell section?

If it's a Bach style, yes.

[Matt K]

The single valve allows for a tapered neckpipe. I have a shires single valve section and it is unbelievably responsive. If I’m doing light bass work and am absolutely sure I’m not going to miss the low B I’ll reach for it

How much did the single valve cost Matt, if you remember?

Best
Sam

I got it pre owned from Gabe on the forum here. I can’t remember, think it was around $1k. Worth every penny! The bell I have it paired with - a Holton 9” bell is an unbelievably good combo

[PhilE]

I have a Greenhoe Bach Corp bass which I bought used. It looks much like the one pictured.
It is a beautiful instrument to play.
I play in a community wind band and another small ensemble.
FWIW the G flat valve gets more use than the F valve.
The F is fine but the G flat valve is just a little quicker and easier in response.

[tbdana]

Well, I bought it. Now I'd like to become more familiar with its history. Can any of you sleuthy, knowledgeable folk give me some context by the Bach serial number? It's 175619.

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I can only tell that the serial number means it was manufactured by Bach sometime between 2000 and 2005. But my question goes more to the Greenhoe part of this.

I'm aware that Greenhoe started by making conversions of Bachs and Conns from individual players. Then they started selling Greenhoe Bachs and Conns that they modified and then sold on the retail market. And then sometime later they started making their own trombones in the Bach and Conn styles. So my question is: At what point was this horn "Greenhoed"? Is it an individual conversion, or is it one they built and sold retail? And in what year?

I don't seem to have the talent to find that info, but some of you folks are super knowledgeable and I'll bet someone can tell me.

[Burgerbob]

What's the bell engraving?

Honestly, it doesn't matter much... it's probably a nice Bach and it has Greenhoe valves.

[MStarke]

I am sure that's a great playing instrument!

I have an original Greenhoe dependent TIS ("62h-style"). It's a really easy playing instrument with a very accessible valve register. I would say it plays a bit more direct and easier than my Conn "62h" (with a newly built dependent valve section).

Just one small hint: I play it (and also my 88htg) with two of the lexan valve caps. For me it made the instrument substantially more responsive and more flexible. These are pretty expensive however.

[GabrielRice]

Is there a serial number on the casing of the F valve?

I have a Schilke-built Greenhoe, serial 5XXX. I've had a Bach bell and tuning slide fit to it, and I use it with a Bach handslide. The fitting hardware on this one looks the same as mine, which is different from a friend's Greenhoe tenor built in the Greenhoe shop about 12 or 13 years ago.

[tbonesullivan]

Just one small hint: I play it (and also my 88htg) with two of the lexan valve caps. For me it made the instrument substantially more responsive and more flexible. These are pretty expensive however.

I have a friend who just got one, and he definitely likes having the lexan valve caps on it some times. They really do make a pretty big change in response.

[Matt K]

They're also way easier to clean, for what it's worth.

[GabrielRice]

I use a lexan cap on the F valve, solid brass on the Gb.

[hornbuilder]

There were numerous "versions" of these horns.

Things started with people sending in their own instrument for conversion. That work often involves a complete overhaul of the instrument, including a complete re lacquer, if requested.

When I started there, they were buying new bells, and factory pre-made hand slides. Those handslides were measured just for giggles, since they were going to be rebuilt, anyway. (Some of those factory slides were "stupidly" out of alignment!!) We pulled them apart, and rebuilt them, straight and correctly aligned. Those slides had the factory serial number/stamp. Initially, those slides had the factory "wingnut" leadpipe clamp. I instigated having a threaded collar being made that could be soldered onto the slide, to replace the Wingnut clamps.

Sometime later, it changed to buying new components from Bach, and the entire assembly was done in the shop. Those slides had their own brand specific serial number stamped on them, no Bach factory stamp on the handslide parts.

There was a fairly constant stream of customer instruments for conversion, as well as new build instruments. The "optimized" horns (a rather interesting choice of word, IMO) continued to be offered, even with the full, home brand instruments being offered. Those horns were made using bells from Sandner in Germany, tuning slide crooks from Mönich, also in Germany, with the rest of the parts (slide tubes, leadpipes etc) being unaltered Bach or Conn factory supplied parts.

The owner of the company was not involved in the "hands-on" instrument construction in the time I worked there. Being the last 6 and a half years of operations in Jackson WI. All work was performed by the technicians employed by the company.

Valve section conversions continue to be a big part of my work at M&W, with Bach's of all vintages being the predominant brand sent in by customers. Infact I'm finishing up a double valve section conversion on a gold brass NY Bach 50B at present, with a yellow brass Mt Vernon 50B following behind shortly.

To answer the question "how old is this horn". I can't actually say specifically. The slide may be a new/rebuilt example sold with the bell section. It does have the factory serial number stamp, but that is no guarantee of when it was actually made/sold, considering the possible extended timelines between that part being made, and the slide being sold. It does show signs of having had a wingnut leadpipe clamp used at some point in it's life. The valve section does have a serial number engraved on the F valve lever bridge. There was a serial number card record, of sorts, kept, but it was not terribly extensive re the spec of the individual instrument attached to that number. I do not have that information, nor know if it still exists in any form.

[tbdana]

Fantastic post, Matthew. Thank you!

[jonathanharker]

I have a 1999 Shires bass with dependent Greenhoe valves, and I wouldn't change it for the world.