Trombone part in Bb bass clef?

[JohnL]

Ran into one of these this week and it got me wondering: What country or countries would this part would normally be used in?

[Pezza]

I often encounter it in European publications, in my case mostly from The Netherlands & Germany.

[GabrielRice]

Respighi's Pines of Rome buccin parts. I just played one a couple of weeks ago.

I realized you can read it like alto clef down an octave with a key signature change. I also realized that this is not really at all helpful.

[WGWTR180]

Respighi's Pines of Rome buccin parts. I just played one a couple of weeks ago.

I realized you can read it like alto clef down an octave with a key signature change. I also realized that this is not really at all helpful.

You lost me at alto clef.

[harrisonreed]

Respighi's Pines of Rome buccin parts. I just played one a couple of weeks ago.

I realized you can read it like alto clef down an octave with a key signature change. I also realized that this is not really at all helpful.

I started just creating clean parts in Sibelius when I run into things like this. Most of the time, the 30 minutes or so it takes to get a clean concert pitch part in a normal clef doubles as the part study I would have done anyways.

If you were sight reading in a weird transposition like that, Gabe, that's another awesome skill (one I don't have!), but I'm usually lucky enough to have a few days before I have to play something I just got. Creating the new part helps me learn it, and saves the next person from the hassle because I turn the fixed part back in when the concert is over.

[JohnL]

I often encounter it in European publications, in my case mostly from The Netherlands & Germany.

I've seen the same thing, but are they actually used in those countries? Or are they included so the publication can be sold in some other country where they're needed?

[BGuttman]

They are most definitely confusing. I've also seen tuba parts in Eb bass clef, which is even more mind-bending.

We got music where the transposed parts were not marked as such and we started playing and had to stop because of the major discord. A look at some of the key signatures on other parts showed which of the two sets just marked "trombone" we should have used.

Apart from Strauss Tenor Tuba parts, I don't recall using transposed bass clef parts ever.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

If it is a modern publication, the part set might also have bass clef (concert pitch) and treble clef B-flat parts (many trombonists are fluent in transposed treble clef because it is so similar to tenor clef). I would ask the librarian to see what parts are in the set. Some European publishers include a smorgasbord of extra parts in C, B-flat and E-flat.

I played with a concert band earlier this summer that had “European parts” issued in folders for a piece. Some the trumpets were given E-flat and C parts, the horns had some E-flat parts and the low brass were given an assortment of transpositions. Everyone was a good sport and played as if everything was normal. After rehearsal for a little while, it was discovered that the parts in the “normal” clef/transposition (or non-transposition) were still in the librarian’s folder. Most musicians just stuck with the European transposed part because they were accustomed to it.

[JohnL]

I would ask the librarian to see what parts are in the set.

I did. The response was: "I passed out everything I had.". I checked the arranger's website and there are SUPPOSED to be concert pitch trombone parts (4 copies of Trombone 1/2 and 2 copies of Trombone 3). We were shorted on concert pitch tuba parts, too.

We struggled though the first reading (a couple of us were able to read the Bb treble parts) and the missing parts are being dealt with, but I'm still left wondering who those "world" parts are for. I get Bb treble, but Bb bass clef?

[Dennis]

You also see Bb bass clef in the Nordic and Baltic countries occasionally. They usually also provide parts marked "C Trombone bass clef." So those are the parts to look for.

I've encountered them occasionally in brass band works coming out of Northern Europe, the Baltics, and Scandinavia. My best advice for playing those Bb bass clef parts is MuseScore or LilyPond: input and transpose it to something you can play. Like Harrison, the time taken to input it and get something clean to play from is usually not much more than I would spend studying the part and thinking through complexities anyway.

A tubist friend told me about being at military tattoo in Norway. The massed bands piece was passed out and their parts were labeled "Bb Tuba" in bass clef. Nobody thought anything about it until they figured out their key signature was the same as the Bb Trumpet parts.

One of the other tubists looked at him and said, "What the hell do we do with this?"

He said he thought for a second, and replied, "Use C tuba fingerings." (They brought Bb tubas with them.) I had to think about it for a second, and I said, "That is really clever."

[StephenK]

They are additional parts supplied by a few publishers, mostly Netherlands and Belgium. Draw a line across it, to ensure it isn't played. Parts in C bass clef and Bb treble clef
will have also been supplied, in every case where I have seen these.

[CalgaryTbone]

I've seen this once or twice - I've heard that that notation was common in some parts of Austria and Germany in the 1800's. That was supposedly why Strauss wrote the parts for tenor tuba in Ein Heldenleben and Don Quixote in that notation. I think that way of writing hung on longer in euphonium writing than it did for trombones.

Jim Scott

[JohnL]

Well, I just finished loading the Trombone 1/Trombone 2 part into MuseScore. One benefit of this exercise is that they'll now have separate parts.

We probably could have gotten parts from the vendor, but it would have been a hassle, first trying to explain to the librarian and the BoD why we needed them and then dealing with the vendor. This way it'll be ready to go for the next rehearsal.

[AtomicClock]

If this was very common, we'd all learn how to read it. But if it was only a little more common, we'd all (at least the gear-obsessed) acquire extra-long Ab tuning slides.

[Posaunus]

Respighi's Pines of Rome buccin parts. I just played one a couple of weeks ago.

Decades ago (before I put the trombone away for ~25 years), I played one of the Pines of Rome (offstage) buccin parts. [Joe Alessi, on his way from Curtis to the Philadelphia Orchestra, was on stage.] Fortunately, I had received the chart in advance, recognized that it was not in "my" key, and was able to transpose it to concert pitch. The other tenor buccin player, a local free-lance trombonist, had not figured this out, and at the pre-concert rehearsal he played all the notes off by a step. He really had to scramble to be ready for the Appian Way! (The orchestra and we off-stagers pulled it off, to great effect! I still love this piece.)

[harrisonreed]

If this was very common, we'd all learn how to read it. But if it was only a little more common, we'd all (at least the gear-obsessed) acquire extra-long Ab tuning slides.

I don't think that would be very nice to play, lol!

[AtomicClock]

I started just creating clean parts in Sibelius when I run into things like this.

Sometimes, including Pines, the clean parts are already up on IMSLP.

I have been known to retype my own parts, though so far not for transpositional reasons. The question then becomes should I donate the new part to the librarian after the concert? What if it's a rental? It's either a service to future renters (which the distributor probably doesn't want to deal with), or a copyright violation that I should hide.

[Pezza]

I often encounter it in European publications, in my case mostly from The Netherlands & Germany.

I've seen the same thing, but are they actually used in those countries? Or are they included so the publication can be sold in some other country where they're needed?

No idea. Really annoying tho.

[ghmerrill]

A few years ago (2018 or so?)I noticed several of these sorts of pieces appearing (community bands) where there were additional bass clef parts (trombone, euphonium, tuba) appearing so that there would be a part in "C" and one in "Bb" -- one of which treated the instrument as a transposing instrument and the other of which treated it as a non-transposing instrument. The first couple of times this happened, the results were hilarious since no one had noticed when they were handed out and some of the people in a section would have one part while others were reading the other part.

It's some kind of European thing and has been discussed in some detail on Dave Werden's euph/tuba forum. As I recall, it's very popular in Portugal for euphonium players.

[Northernigel]

Trombone parts in Bb (any clef) are bad for the sense of pitch. I dislike seeing a printed note that is one tone different from the pitch you're expected to provide.

[ghmerrill]

I dislike seeing a printed note that is one tone different from the pitch you're expected to provide.

So I'm thinking you haven't played many woodwinds? Or high brass?

[Ted]

As a Dutch musician, I'm aware that the Bb Bass Clef is commonly used by tuba and euphonium players in concert (wind) bands. However, euphonium players often prefer Bb in Treble Clef. In symphony orchestras, the Bass Clef in C is typically used. For most pieces we play in the wind band, trombone parts are available in Bb Treble Clef, Bb Bass Clef, and C Bass Clef, with the last one being used most frequently (95% of the time). Bb Treble Clef is used about 5% of the time, mainly by players who are accustomed to British-style brass bands. The Bb Bass Clef is only used to confuse players.

[marccromme]

Trombone parts in Bb (any clef) are bad for the sense of pitch. I dislike seeing a printed note that is one tone different from the pitch you're expected to provide.

LOL. If you want to play different kind of music, you need to learn alto, tenor clef in C, (classic), bass in C (classic and big band), and treble in Bb ( military, euph parts, and brass band trombones). And maybe treble in C (church music voices doubling). Thats how it is. Dislike it or not, that is what a versatile trombone player needs to read.

[claf]

Trombone parts in Bb (any clef) are bad for the sense of pitch. I dislike seeing a printed note that is one tone different from the pitch you're expected to provide.

LOL. If you want to play different kind of music, you need to learn alto, tenor clef in C, (classic), bass in C (classic and big band), and treble in Bb ( military, euph parts, and brass band trombones). And maybe treble in C (church music voices doubling). Thats how it is. Dislike it or not, that is what a versatile trombone player needs to read.

I have already seen tenor and treble clef in C in big band charts.
And treble in C in classical repertoire as well.

[harrisonreed]

Treble C is pretty common in concertos that take you above a D5, just for those altissimo phrases.

I've rewritten some big band charts to have my part in tenor clef just so I wasn't looking at a billion ledger lines. That's definitely not traditional though!

[CalgaryTbone]

Rob McConnell, the leader of the Toronto-based "Boss Brass" used to use tenor clef in some of his charts since he knew that all of his players were comfortable with it. Makes so much more sense. I've always thought that tenor clef ought to be the default for tenor trombone. It corresponds much better to the usual playing range.

I hate the trend towards using treble clef (in C ) in trombone parts. I grew up with Blazhevitch being the gold standard for learning clefs, and was pretty fluent in bass, tenor & alto before starting college. I almost never saw concert pitch treble, except for a couple of notes in a few French pieces (mostly solos, and one or two high Ravel licks). I see it more often now, and mostly I find it to be crappy arrangements of Pops material where it's obvious that the arranger isn't even aware of the existence of the "C" clefs. The same guys write lots of valve notes in the tenor trombones while the bass is resting.

Jim Scott

[Nomsis]

I can contribute that is completely NOT common in Germany for what my years in German wind bands are worth, I have seen arrangements from different eras, some very old. But it is very common that Bb treble clef parts exist, I think that makes some sense because more towards Austria/Italy sometimes the trombone parts are played by valve trombones or bass trumpets and so it's easy for tenorhorn/bariton/euphonium players to switch instruments. Those are typically and traditionally read in Bb treble clef here.

I think the only time I have seen Bb bass clef parts is when we played an older arrangement from the netherlands, but normal C parts existed as well.

[timothy42b]

Treble C is pretty common in concertos that take you above a D5, just for those altissimo phrases.

I was covering a horn in F part once. That's another way to avoid leger lines.

And then - it went into bass clef. Still in F.

[sf105]

The last two pages of the contra part for Siegfried in the new Schott edition are Bb bass clef. I have no idea why.