Benge serial numbers

[Oslide]

Just bought a Benge 175 (straight, 0.525), serial number 159xxx.

I would like to know when it was built but couldn't find much information on Benge trombones. Moreover I'd be interested to hear whether this model has a tempered bell or whether that was a feature only available on their trumpets.

Thanks for any info in this regard!

Wolfgang

[Posaunus]

Wolfgang,

Finding information on Benge serial numbers is puzzling. I haven't found a useful list.

Thanks to previous Trombone Forum posts, I learned that King apparently purchased the Benge name in the mid-1980's. I understand that prior to that, Benge had only made trumpets. Some time after that (late 1980s?), King introduced the Benge line of trombones to complete head-to-head with Conn’s 88H. Most orchestras didn’t take King’s own line of instruments seriously, so they combined a new design with the cachet of the Benge name (legendary amongst trumpet folk) to try to get a piece of the symphonic/orchestral market.

I believe that my Benge 165F (S/N 8430xx) trombone was made at the King factory in Eastlake, OH between 1995 and 2002 – but I may be wrong about those dates. The closed-wrap 165F was introduced (probably early 1990s) as a "step-down" version of the open-wrap 190F that had been marketed to professional orchestral players. The 165F bell was not annealed as the 190F was.

I don't believe that King ever manufactured trumpets under the Benge name – trumpet manufacturing had ceased before the purchase; King only bought the brand name. So there is no relation between Benge trumpets and Benge (King) trombones.

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you anything about the Benge 175 trombones or their history (except that they are undervalued and really seem to be fine trombones).

[chromebone]

Benge trumpets were produced by King, which bought Benge in 1971, and continued into the UMI era until the early 2000’s. King invested in Benge, and excellent instruments were produced by Benge during King Musical Instruments (pre UMI) ownership in a separate facility that King built in Los Angeles. The problems for Benge started when UMI took over and decided to move production to Eastlake in the mid-eighties. UMI did not retain any of the craftspeople from Los Angeles, and also started using parts from their other brands to save on production costs. The Eastlake Benges are considered vastly inferior to the ones produced in California.
As far as serial numbers, the Trombones basically use the King serial numbering system.

[Oslide]

Thank you, Posaunus and chromebone, for your overviews. Much appreciated!

According to the list of King serial numbers by Conn-Selmer it looks as if my horn was built around 1986 which seems almost unbelievably old given its good looks.

Most of all I would like to know whether its bell has in fact been annealed. None of my other horns has this feature. Given Benge's complicated history however it will be difficult to find out.

[chromebone]

When I asked Chuck Ward, the designer of the Benge trombone about it, he said the 175 did have an annealed bell. The annealed bell was a feature on all of the professional level Benge models.

[Posaunus]

Benge trumpets were produced by King, which bought Benge in 1971, and continued into the UMI era until the early 2000’s. King invested in Benge, and excellent instruments were produced by Benge during King Musical Instruments (pre UMI) ownership in a separate facility that King built in Los Angeles.

Chromebone,

As always thanks for correcting me. Your knowledge of the Benge history is impressive. I should stop speculating regarding things about which I have no knowledge! I guess I was confused about the trumpets, since I had never heard of Benge trumpets being made in Ohio.

Do you know anything about the Benge 175 trombone?

[Oslide]

When I asked Chuck Ward, the designer of the Benge trombone about it, he said the 175 did have an annealed bell. The annealed bell was a feature on all of the professional level Benge models.

Great news! Thank you!

[chromebone]

I don’t much about the 175, other than it was the medium bore model. I do seem to remember that it supplanted the 3B+ during its run.

[Oslide]

If the serial number 159xxx really points to ca. 1986 (the Conn-Selmer list stops about one hundred short of my number), then this means that my horn was built during the inferior post-LA period (sigh). - Well, you can't always win.

[chromebone]

Benge Trombones were never built in California, they were all built in Eastlake. Aside from the name, they have nothing else to do with Benge trumpets. Benge trombones were essentially improved Kings. King decided to use the Benge name on the Trombone because they were trying to get back into the Orchestral market, and orchestral players didn’t like the instruments when they were branded as King. Chuck Ward said some players wouldn’t even try them. When they re-branded the identical instrument as a Benge, the very same players loved them. The Benge trombone did not suffer the same quality and reputation issues as the Benge trumpet, but it did ultimately suffer from the same neglect from UMI. The Benge trombone made sense when King was still an independent company, but once UMI and later Conn-Selmer took over, it didn’t have a place next to the other brands.

[Oslide]

What a luxury to be told such inside stories! Thank you very much!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The Benge trombones were not “identical” to the Kings. There were many similar parts, but a few things were very different. For me, the yellow brass outer slide on the Benge 190 was a significant improvement over the nickel slide on the King 4B. I played a King 4B as a student in the mid-1980s. I remember going to a trombone workshop and trying a Benge 190. It had a darker, richer sound and I immediately contracted Benge 190 envy!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have always wondered about the Benge 165 model trombone (.547 intermediate model). I was told by many people that the bell was identical to the Conn 8H/88H bell. Since the Benge 165 played very well and (for me) similar to the Conn 88H, I always believed that bit of folklore. I also believed it because I knew UMI was the parent company of Conn, King and Benge for a time.

Anybody have any insider information on that? Where's Chuck Ward when you need him? By the way Chuck, thanks for fixing my trombone slide back in the 1980's. It worked great for many years after you did you voodoo on it!

[Posaunus]

I have always wondered about the Benge 165 model trombone (.547 intermediate model). I was told by many people that the bell was identical to the Conn 8H/88H bell. Since the Benge 165 played very well and (for me) similar to the Conn 88H, I always believed that bit of folklore. I also believed it because I knew UMI was the parent company of Conn, King and Benge for a time.

Anybody have any insider information on that? Where's Chuck Ward when you need him? By the way Chuck, thanks for fixing my trombone slide back in the 1980's. It worked great for many years after you did you voodoo on it!

From "Chromebone," posted in the Trombone Forum in 2016:
Just a little info on the Benge 165: It is basically identical to the Benge 190, but with a closed wrap and a different leadpipe and neckpipe. The Benge 190 is not derived from the King 4B Bell as is commonly assumed, but is, in fact, a King 5B Bell cut to 8 1/2" diameter instead of the 5B's 9" diameter. That gives it a bigger bell throat than a 4B. According to Stan Matras, the designer of the Benge 165, it also has the 5B-derived, Benge 190 bell.
"chromebone" (Trombone Forum) 17 & 18 June 2016.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Great information Posaunus.....thanks!

If the Benge 165 has the same large throat bell as the Benge 190, and both were derived from the King 5B, it helps explain why they play the way they do for me. Every time I have played on one of my students' 165 horns, I always thought it was a great player for an intermediate horn.

[Jbeckett]

Old thread. Was going to ask about a silver plated (not nickel) 290. Slide has 8929 and bell section has 39 136304. All tuning slides are marked with “Q”. I’ve only ever seen one other silver plated 290.