Shires used to be able to convert a Bb bass into an F bass.

[BassSteveBone8792]

Hey Everyone,

Just did some reading around and heard that shires used to do special work to convert Bb bass trombones into F but not into a full contrabass. Not sure if this is true, but if it is does anyone know about this process/know of any existing models of this? Generally just curious about learning about this.

Thanks,
Steve B

[Burgerbob]

Yup, Benn has one. He should chime in.

[JeffBone44]

Once when I was visiting the factory they had an F bass prototype for me to try. All I remember is that at the time it took way too much air for me to play - I was much more of a tenor player and hadn't had much experience with bass yet.

[MahlerMusic]

I know I'm late to the chat but after playing a G Contrabass (Minick) for a concert and now over the summer. I'm super surprised that there is not a modern G Bass. You can basically use a bass slide with a F bass bell section. You have 5-6 positions with C (6 position) valve and second valve in 4th or 5th position.

You get a full sound down to a Ab before you get a thinner G petal.
Intonation is the largest con but with more R & D that will go away. It never sat right with me that the tenor and bass are in the same key.

[Matt K]

Jeff at Long Island Brass is making Ab basses! Iirc he says it’s a good compromise that works better than going bigger because of the bell proportions.

[AtomicClock]

It never sat right with me that the tenor and bass are in the same key.

But it sounds like you're fine with bass and contra being in the same key. Hmm.

[hornbuilder]

[/quote]

But it sounds like you're fine with bass and contra being in the same key. Hmm.
[/quote]

Because a "real" bass trombone is in F. A real contra is NOT in F, it is in CC or BBb. It has only been very recently that instruments in low F have been called "contra"

[brassmedic]

I know I'm late to the chat but after playing a G Contrabass (Minick) for a concert and now over the summer. I'm super surprised that there is not a modern G Bass. You can basically use a bass slide with a F bass bell section. You have 5-6 positions with C (6 position) valve and second valve in 4th or 5th position.

You get a full sound down to a Ab before you get a thinner G petal.
Intonation is the largest con but with more R & D that will go away. It never sat right with me that the tenor and bass are in the same key.

They're not really in the same key if you think of it the way french horn players do. They consider the lowest key the instrument can be switched to to be the key of the instrument. So Bb/F horn is considered to be in F. Apply that to trombones, and a Bb/F tenor trombone is really in the key of F, and a Bb/F/Gb/D bass trombone is really in the key of D.

[JohnL]

They're not really in the same key if you think of it the way french horn players do. They consider the lowest key the instrument can be switched to to be the key of the instrument. So Bb/F horn is considered to be in F. Apply that to trombones, and a Bb/F tenor trombone is really in the key of F, and a Bb/F/Gb/D bass trombone is really in the key of D.

I think part of that is because Bb/F double horns generally "stand" in F, so they think of the Bb side as shortening the instrument. Then there's that whole "Bb side/F side" thing where they think of it as two separate horns that just share a few components (as I recall, Eliezer Aharoni suggests that trombone players take a similar approach).

[harrisonreed]

That's like saying a Bb trumpet is actually in E. Technically that's the lowest key it can be switched to.

It's in Bb. The horn is unusual because it defaults to a lower key/setting, so we say it's in F. Same with the weird preacher/child Yamaha trombone that is actually in C but defaults to Bb. But there is no need to overcomplicate it. You should go with the key that it's in without pressing any valve buttons.

Interestingly, horn players will usually tell you that the F side is superior in tone to the Bb side. Bass trombonists will usually tell you the Bb side is better than the D side.

[MahlerMusic]

Wow, this really went sideways very quickly.
Is the long Island Ab bass the one in the picture above?

And to the bass and Contra being in the same key comment... I also have a BBb Contra and the sound is very different to a F or G Contra.

I guess trombones have a very diverse instrument sound. A Jazz tenor sounds very different to a symphony tenor. I call my Minick a Contra because everyone says it is because of the taper. I do wish things were simpler.

[Finetales]

It seems we're having the "this trombone is this long so it should be called this" discussion again.

Trombones have always been labelled by the role their sound fulfills, not the length of tubing. There are G, F, and Eb basses and G, F, and Eb contras, just as there are Bb tenors and Bb basses (with or without valves). There was a time and place in history where "alto", "tenor", and "bass" trombones were all small, straight Bb instruments with different bores and mouthpieces. And in the early 20th century, some American makers sold their small, medium, and large (all small by today's standards) Bb trombones as tenor, baritone, and bass.

If you think that's bad, consider trumpets in low Eb. There are long Eb orchestral trumpets (soprano instruments that play in the same range as a Bb or C trumpet, very small bore and sounds closer to a natural trumpet than a modern trumpet), Eb alto trumpets, and Eb bass trumpets that are all the same length, but they have COMPLETELY different sounds, tapers, mouthpieces, and functions within a trumpet section. Not to mention that narrow bore orchestral Eb bass trumpets and large bore beer hall Eb bass trumpets sound totally different again, so one could make the argument that the orchestral instruments should be called tenor trumpets, thus giving you 4 very different categories of trumpet that are all the same length.

In short, trying to label brass instruments just by tubing length is a gross oversimplification and inaccurate to how the instruments play and sound.

As for French horns and hornists and how they think, a double horn is in F and Bb. Not one or the other. It's a DOUBLE horn. And not all horns have a better F side...in fact, I'd say they're in the minority. Alex 103s in particular have a much better Bb side, and if you look at the Berlin Phil players they're playing in Bb at least 90% of the time.

Some Bb single horns have ascending C valves (like the Yamaha YSL-350C mentioned earlier) so technically the horn is in C with no valves open, but they are still referred to as Bb horns without exception. (The Conn 60H preacher model trombone stands in C and the valve lowers it to Bb, so it's considered to be in C. I suppose that would change if you reversed the valve.)

Long Island Brass Company likes to call their Db and Ab trombones "baritone" and "contrabaritone" respectively. Personally, they just sound like a Db bass and Ab contrabass to me...but in any case, I challenge you to listen to a demo of the Db and tell me that's an alto trombone. It's shorter than a tenor so it must be an alto, right??

Anyway, I'd love to try them someday. As well as that Minick G contra!

[LIBrassCo]

So.... I've spent time playing a Minnick G Contra, and found that the smallest I could go without having issues was Ab with a true contra bell. The long term plan was to lengthen the slide to end up with a better proportioned G contra as an option, but all my crazy horn stuff ended up getting back burnered with COVID and my shift into mostly producing mouthpieces.

A long term project will be a contra kit, but that's way off in the horizon, as I'm only now slowly scaling horn work back up. Rather than only one off projects (which we still take a small number of) we're looking at limited runs of a specific design. Components modular to other manufacturers may also become more available.

[dukesboneman]

Not trying to be rude or anything , But in the real world, is there really that much use for a Contra Bass trombone?

[harrisonreed]

With sound libraries taking over most movie scoring and the very few jobs for live scoring and recording already taken? No. Doesn't mean it's not a good pursuit though.

Hans Zimmer will have his score presented to the production with only samples, the orchestra will record it, and then he'll still stick four contra samples (amongst other samples instruments, obvs) down on the bottom, capable of holding pedals forever. The one "lucky" live contra player buffered by 4 superhuman contras...

It's ironic because I think the contrabass trombone is now more heard and more popular than ever before, but the average joe is not aware of what they are hearing.

[hornbuilder]

Other than the British G bass trombone, and the earlier sackbut and classical trombones, I don't believe I have seen historical examples of instruments in F or Eb that would be described as "bass". Would be happy to be corrected.

[elmsandr]

Not trying to be rude or anything , But in the real world, is there really that much use for a Contra Bass trombone?

You can take the words “contra bass” out of that sentence and it is just as true a question.

Art (read: music) shouldn’t necessarily be about usefulness.

Cheers,
Andy

[hornbuilder]

Hans Zimmer will have his score presented to the production with only samples, the orchestra will record it, and then he'll still stick four contra samples (amongst other samples instruments, obvs) down on the bottom, capable of holding pedals forever. The one "lucky" live contra player buffered by 4 superhuman contras...

But there are photos of the recording sessions for many of these movies showing sections of 5, or more players, with multiple contras, chimbassi and tuba....

[MStarke]

This has become a very broad discussion around contras...

Some thoughts:
- Reg. converting a regular bass trombone to a (F?) contra. I would say this can only bring substantial compromises. If you want a full contra, you have to exchange every (!) part of a bass. If you want to get a bit closer to a contra sound on bass, you might start just with the most open lead pipe (even "no leadpipe"), use a contra mouthpiece and use a large dual bore slide.
- Reg. F vs. C or B contra. F contra is the de facto standard, no matter if it's historically correct or not. I have only heard, not played a B contra myself, but I am pretty sure it's not comparable in playability with a good F contra. Go to Bayreuth and ask if you can play a B contra there...
- Reg. general useability of a contra. In Germany and some other middle European countries it is almost obligatory to learn contra at some point if you aim for a professional playing career as classical bass trombonist or already play in a (larger) symphony or opera orchestra. Ouside that world it's practically a gimmick.
- It's a really fun instrument and I am constantly considering to get one. But I really really do not have any use for it. There is an attractive occasion to play it every few years...

[Matt K]

- Reg. converting a regular bass trombone to a (F?) contra. I would say this can only bring substantial compromises. If you want a full contra, you have to exchange every (!) part of a bass. If you want to get a bit closer to a contra sound on bass, you might start just with the most open lead pipe (even "no leadpipe"), use a contra mouthpiece and use a large dual bore slide.

The "conversions" that Rath and Shires did pretty much just use the valves and everything else is different. There's a longer slide, a totally different main tuning slide, both valves have different tuning slides, and the bell is different. I'm not sure what the bore size of the rotors is on an F contra (or F bass, whatever we decide to call it) but I imagine there's not a huge difference between one of these "conversions" and a true F "contra"

[BGuttman]

Note that Wagner's original instrument was in Bb an octave below a conventional tenor trombone. Most of Wagner's contra parts can easily be covered on a double valve bass if you have a good pedal register.

Apparently an F bass was common in Bartok's time since he wrote a gliss for it in his Concerto for Orchestra and the opera "The Miraculous Mandarin".+

[MStarke]

- Reg. converting a regular bass trombone to a (F?) contra. I would say this can only bring substantial compromises. If you want a full contra, you have to exchange every (!) part of a bass. If you want to get a bit closer to a contra sound on bass, you might start just with the most open lead pipe (even "no leadpipe"), use a contra mouthpiece and use a large dual bore slide.

The "conversions" that Rath and Shires did pretty much just use the valves and everything else is different. There's a longer slide, a totally different main tuning slide, both valves have different tuning slides, and the bell is different. I'm not sure what the bore size of the rotors is on an F contra (or F bass, whatever we decide to call it) but I imagine there's not a huge difference between one of these "conversions" and a true F "contra"

Just as an example I looked at Lätzsch. One of their basses shows 15.5 mm valves, one of the contras 16.5. This combined with the different sizing of the slide receiver and gooseneck would probably be at least noticeable. But I guess people like Matthew know better than I do. I just mean that so much of the trombone is changed and still you won't get the full feeling that it doesn't seem like a good choice.

[Matt K]

Interesting; 15.5mm seems slightly large, but not crazy, for a bass bore; typically modern basses have ~.593 valves / tubing. 15.5mm is .610". 16.5 mm in .649" which would definitely be noticable.

For what little it's worth, I looked up Hagmann offerings:
http://www.trombone.ch/EN/valvesmodels.html

Presently the largest I see is a 15.5mm, so that lines up with what is on the Latzsch site. I don't know what Thein uses for their contras, though they indicate that their slides are .587". https://thein-brass.de/en/instrument/universal-model-2/

If that is truly the largest valve Hagmann offers, then I suspect the conversion kits would be noticeable but not a huge deal. If the typical is closer to 16.5mm then agree, that probably is in territory where they are a compromise. I've unfortunately not played one of the conversion kits so I can't speak from experience. I can say that I've played the Thein contras and the two I've played were amazing. When I win the lottery, it'll be the first thing I buy

[MahlerMusic]

Not trying to be rude or anything , But in the real world, is there really that much use for a Contra Bass trombone?

The short answer to that is a big fat NO.

Our Trombone Choir got the opportunity to use the Minick G and a Mirafone BBb. The BBb was used for one short 30 second piece and it was just so we could say that we played it. The Minick G was a lot more versatile and was used for 5 pieces (all for Bass Trombone). One of the pieces was a Bass Trombone solo of a bass Aria from an opera written an octave lower but some of the part was bumped back up the octave for playability on a Bass. With the Minick G I rewrote the part to match the original bass Aria an octave lower for the entire piece.

[elmsandr]

Hans Zimmer will have his score presented to the production with only samples, the orchestra will record it, and then he'll still stick four contra samples (amongst other samples instruments, obvs) down on the bottom, capable of holding pedals forever. The one "lucky" live contra player buffered by 4 superhuman contras...

But there are photos of the recording sessions for many of these movies showing sections of 5, or more players, with multiple contras, chimbassi and tuba....

Zimmer does things differently than most…. Rarely are the melodic lines played by the performers as melodic lines. Usually fed into his system and they make an instrument for him/his team to play and control. Often they will go back and redub the lead lines, but not necessarily make parts.

https://www.20k.org/episodes/hans-zimm ... te-control

Cheers,
Andy

[hornbuilder]

After coming to interview with my former employer, I spent some time back in Australia while the paperwork was sorted for me to come and work. I decided to do some fiddling. The orchestra had bought a Glassl contra for me to play, which while great from low F down, was pretty terrible from F# up. I made my own, using a Bach 50BGL bell, which was extended, a pair of regular bass trombone valves (.594") and a long handslide (.562" bore, with long outers, but short inners, so 6th position was "just" reachable).

I played that horn for a season of Turandot. Every one else in the section said they preferred my horn over the dedicated contra. The only thing I would change on it would be to make a larger, .578 top and bottom slide.

[Finetales]

Not trying to be rude or anything , But in the real world, is there really that much use for a Contra Bass trombone?

If you are one of the handful of top-call LA session bass trombonists, you need to be able to play contra. In big European orchestras the bass trombonist is usually also required to play contra, but I don't know if they give you one to use or not.

Other than that, apart from voluntarily using one in an orchestra that has doubling pay, there is no actual use for a contra, at least in terms of "getting paid to play this instrument I spent the price of a good used car on". Trombone choirs and home recordings are the unpaid uses we invent for it.

Other than the British G bass trombone, and the earlier sackbut and classical trombones, I don't believe I have seen historical examples of instruments in F or Eb that would be described as "bass". Would be happy to be corrected.

Bass trombones in F and Eb (along with F bass valve trombones) were around and in use in mainland Europe at the same time as the G bass in the UK. There is a reason a huge portion of standard orchestral rep was written for a low F instrument (Bartok glisses, etc.). Edward Solomon has a German F, and old F bass valve trombones show up for sale on Facebook from time to time.

There are very few modern F basses, but they do exist. There has been a Lidl in F for sale at Swisstbone for quite same time. It's labelled on the site as a contra, but it's really an actual F bass with Hagmanns added later. Small shank, .525 bore. Noah Gladstone also had (or still has?) a modern F bass on the BrassArk.

- Reg. converting a regular bass trombone to a (F?) contra. I would say this can only bring substantial compromises. If you want a full contra, you have to exchange every (!) part of a bass.

Yep. The important difference between a bass and a contra is the taper, just like tenor vs. bass. Anything that uses a bass bell rather than a contra bell is still probably going to sound like a bass, just a longer one.

I have only heard, not played a B contra myself, but I am pretty sure it's not comparable in playability with a good F contra.

That's an understatement. I've played a few "good" (better than the Miraphone) Bb contras and they are all pretty much unplayable. F contra is hard, but a good one is an actual musical instrument.

After coming to interview with my former employer, I spent some time back in Australia while the paperwork was sorted for me to come and work. I decided to do some fiddling. The orchestra had bought a Glassl contra for me to play, which while great from low F down, was pretty terrible from F# up. I made my own, using a Bach 50BGL bell, which was extended, a pair of regular bass trombone valves (.594") and a long handslide (.562" bore, with king outers, but shirt inners, so 6th position was "just" reachable).

I played that horn for a season of Turandot. Every one else in the section said they preferred my horn over the dedicated contra. The only thing I would change on it would be to make a larger, .578 top and bottom slide.

Knowing that you can make an F bass is...dangerous.

[slipmo]

Bass trombones in F and Eb (along with F bass valve trombones) were around and in use in mainland Europe at the same time as the G bass in the UK. There is a reason a huge portion of standard orchestral rep was written for a low F instrument (Bartok glisses, etc.). Edward Solomon has a German F, and old F bass valve trombones show up for sale on Facebook from time to time.

There are very few modern F basses, but they do exist. There has been a Lidl in F for sale at Swisstbone for quite same time. It's labelled on the site as a contra, but it's really an actual F bass with Hagmanns added later. Small shank, .525 bore. Noah Gladstone also had (or still has?) a modern F bass on the BrassArk.

https://brassark.com/sale_horns/custom- ... h-c-valve/

[Finetales]

That's the one!

[LeTromboniste]

Other than the British G bass trombone, and the earlier sackbut and classical trombones, I don't believe I have seen historical examples of instruments in F or Eb that would be described as "bass". Would be happy to be corrected.

I recently had the wonderful opportunity to try a Penzel F bass from the 1850s or 60s. .531" bore, 9.5" bell. One of the most pleasant basses of any kind I've ever played. Instantly addictive and incredibly easy and rewarding.

[SamBTbrn]

Other than the British G bass trombone, and the earlier sackbut and classical trombones, I don't believe I have seen historical examples of instruments in F or Eb that would be described as "bass". Would be happy to be corrected.

I recently had the wonderful opportunity to try a Penzel F bass from the 1850s or 60s. .531" bore, 9.5" bell. One of the most pleasant basses of any kind I've ever played. Instantly addictive and incredibly easy and rewarding.

Also my personal favorite the F Basstrombone from Joseph Gabler. (First half of 19th century) Absolutely stunning instrument.

CMIM000018080.jpg

CMIM000018081.jpg

CMIM000015018.jpg

[SamBTbrn]

This is the Penzel Max was talking about.

Messenger_creation_048c58a9-5b26-403d-89da-2faba7474dda.jpeg

Messenger_creation_4b709f5b-536f-45a5-ad3c-cb29001b2cf1.jpeg

[SamBTbrn]

After coming to interview with my former employer, I spent some time back in Australia while the paperwork was sorted for me to come and work. I decided to do some fiddling. The orchestra had bought a Glassl contra for me to play, which while great from low F down, was pretty terrible from F# up. I made my own, using a Bach 50BGL bell, which was extended, a pair of regular bass trombone valves (.594") and a long handslide (.562" bore, with king outers, but shirt inners, so 6th position was "just" reachable).

I played that horn for a season of Turandot. Every one else in the section said they preferred my horn over the dedicated contra. The only thing I would change on it would be to make a larger, .578 top and bottom slide.

I played that Glassl just after the Queensland Conservatorium purchased it from the AOBO around 2012/2013. I must agree it was not a great instrument.

[LeTromboniste]

This is the Penzel Max was talking about.
Messenger_creation_048c58a9-5b26-403d-89da-2faba7474dda.jpeg

Messenger_creation_4b709f5b-536f-45a5-ad3c-cb29001b2cf1.jpeg

Indeed!

Off topic but that alto is also possibly the best alto I've ever tried. Very in-tune partials, super responsive, and this awesome, sweet but bright sound. It just absolutely sings. I played the Rhenisch chorale on it, cold. Could do it with a resonant tone as soft as I wanted, with effortless high notes and the whole thing in one breath. And that's me, who has completely stopped playing alto trombone years ago. It blew my mind.