Is this a "german trombone" - Meister Dotzauer

[Nomsis]

I recently got this trombone from a local "trombone choir" I play with and really wonder what this is.
I suspect this model to be from around 1980. At least I know for sure that it was in regular use around 1990 but then it wasn't used for a long time till now.

The slide is single bore (12.8-13mm) and takes a medium (bariton) shank mouthpiece. The bell is rather large with 23cm. The trombone plays well with a nice dark sound from low to high with even a usable valve register and good/ok tuning. But it does not play exactly how I expect a trombone to play. I brought it once to a rehearsal and nobody really noticed until I pointed it out but thats not really saying a lot because these poeple do not care very much. It felt for me I needed to adjust a little bit to blend with the others. I played it with a Josef Klier 6CB (B just means it is a medium shank) because that's the only medium shank I have.
The condition is good but not perfect, aside from a few dings and dongs the inner slide has some chrom loss at the end but still works fine and feels very light.
Meister Dotzauer still exists today but mainly produces parforce horns. It seems they aren't making trombones any more (at least nothing can be found when browsing their homepage) but still google brought up this link to a very modern and nice looking trombone: https://www.musik-dotzauer.de/konzertin ... b-posaune/

I really wonder what kind of trombone I got and what I should/could use it for and which mouthpiece is recommended for it. I think I could totally use it for most of my playing without anyone complaining but I don't feel like it would be a perfect fit. It is definitely not a modern trombone but neither a classic german trombone I think.
Really interested what you think about this.

If anyone is interested in purchasing I'm open for selling because I don't really need this and I'm running out of space for my ever increasing collection of brass junk (:

[Finetales]

Sounds like a German trombone to me. The single bore is a bit less common, but the general size of the bore and bell, medium shank, and how you describe it playing/sounding all sound like a German trombone to me. Also, Dotzauer specializes in historic brass instruments (not like sackbuts, but older modern instruments) so it would make sense that they would make a German trombone. That website seems like a shell that hasn't added most of the product line yet - this Dotzauer page shows a complete line of brass instruments from trumpets to tubas.

I have to say, it looks MUCH more ergonomic to play than my German trombone, which is a bit of a nightmare and has thus been for sale for awhile. As for what you could use it for, I've used mine to play German and Austrian music in smaller orchestras when I'm the only trombone. It's very satisfying in that role as it blends really nicely with horns, winds, and rotary trumpets...it just doesn't blend well with American trombones.

[BGuttman]

Forum member macbone1 had a Dotzauer that he bought in Germany. He was trying to sell it. He might know more about Dotzauer. This one doesn't look like the old quartventil German trombones since it has a trigger and doesn't use the old thong system.

[Nomsis]

Interesting side you listed there, but I don't think they offer something comparable to what I have anymore, the trombone I linked above at least looks different. Your side does not even list a trombone with a quart valve.

It's right, ergonomics are no problem with this. I think the valve lever is not perfect but this probably would be an easy adjustment. Problem is I don't play in orchestras and probably won't anytime soon. And all poeple I play with play american/modern trombones. Some are made by german makers like kühnl&hoyer or b&s but all are in a modern style.

What kind of mouthpiece is a good fit for this? Shallow or deep cup in general?

[JohnL]

Looks like a modern interpretation of a German-style trombone. Classic German proportions, but with modern-ish fittings and ergonomics.

[BGuttman]

...

What kind of mouthpiece is a good fit for this? Shallow or deep cup in general?

The bore is similar in size to a King 3B-F. For jazz playing you could use anything from a Schilke 45 to a Schilke 51 (equivalent). The 47 appears to be popular from a lot of the posts here.

For Concert Band you would want to go on the larger size; 48-52.

The Euro shank conforms to the Wick M shank or Y. You could try a Wick 5AM or 4AY. I found the 4AY to work nicely on my G-Bass trombone (has a Medium shank). Of course to play Wick you need to be able to tolerate the rim -- some do and some don't.

[timothy42b]

The bore is similar in size to a King 3B-F. For jazz playing you could use anything from a Schilke 45 to a Schilke 51 (equivalent). The 47 appears to be popular from a lot of the posts here.

For Concert Band you would want to go on the larger size; 48-52.

I'm not sure it would work for either jazz or concert band. I think that style of German horn is designed to play very mellow folk music, and can't be pushed any brighter or edgier. Or even louder.

We had someone bringing bass trumpets to one of our groups, and the Dotzauer was by far the best sounding of the different ones he tried. It had just the right amount of true trumpet character. IMO of course.

[MStarke]

The bore is similar in size to a King 3B-F. For jazz playing you could use anything from a Schilke 45 to a Schilke 51 (equivalent). The 47 appears to be popular from a lot of the posts here.

For Concert Band you would want to go on the larger size; 48-52.

I'm not sure it would work for either jazz or concert band. I think that style of German horn is designed to play very mellow folk music, and can't be pushed any brighter or edgier. Or even louder.

I would not totally agree with this statement. German trombones (though I have not played that specific model and there is a lot of variation) can work very well for any symphony and/or wind/concert band/orchestra. However not really when mixing with American trombones. They are NOT targeted at folk music specifically.

For jazz and big band stuff it does typically not really fit, no matter what mouthpiece you play. German trombones tend to sound less clear and articulations tend to be more covered up/softer which is not what would typically help in those settings. There are always exceptions, but I don't know anyone playing a German tenor trombone in a bigband.

[Nomsis]

I agree to all what MStarke said. This trombone would not really work for jazz settings I think. Articulation is a little bit different but I can get the sound to be very powerful and loud as well. And at least nowadays such trombones can't typically be found in folk music in Germany. At least I never saw one. But german trombones for sure can be found in some symphony orchestras! This particular trombone was played in church about 30 years ago but nowadays I never saw one of these used there.

[Nomsis]

I'm trying to sell this instrument at the moment but not sure about an appropriate price. What would you think would be a fair price?

[MStarke]

Assuming you are in Germany and this trombone is in well playable condition:
Unfortunately it's not comparable in value to some of the very desirable German brands (Kruspe etc.).
Also many people will probably prefer a more standard American trombone.

So although build quality is probably quite good, I think with a bit of luck you could sell it for 400-600 Euros. Very very wild guess...

[Nomsis]

ok thanks. That's roughly what I think of as well.

[Macbone1]

Forum member macbone1 had a Dotzauer that he bought in Germany. He was trying to sell it. He might know more about Dotzauer. This one doesn't look like the old quartventil German trombones since it has a trigger and doesn't use the old thong system.

That's true I had a custom ordered Dotzauer bought new while I was stationed in Germany in the service In 1998.
Mine was a medium bore, open wrap and any small shank mouthpiece fit fine. It looked nothing like this instrument here. The ergonomics were excellent and it was a light weight instrument. All the specs were consistent with a Bach 36B except for the hugely oversized bell flair, which was a trend at the time. It had a 9 in bell. Even Yamaha was experimenting with big trombone bells then.
It played well and the fine German craftsmanship was very evident. But I also couldn't really find a blend and the response just felt too different from American trombones. I was playing in a big band and a concert band.
l couldn't sell it in the states so I traded it for a bass trombone shipped from England.

[Macbone1]

For jazz and big band stuff it does typically not really fit, no matter what mouthpiece you play. German trombones tend to sound less clear and articulations tend to be more covered up/softer which is not what would typically help in those settings. There are always exceptions, but I don't know anyone playing a German tenor trombone in a bigband.

I used my .525 Dotzauer in big bands (2nd and 3rd) and on 1st book in concert band. It was good in concert band but too dark for big band (9 inch bell!) The whole horn was lightweight and could not project a rich fortissimo no matter what. It had no "meat and potatoes". I got by in big band until I was issued a .500 Shires (military band supply) THAT was one sweet horn.