YSL-648R Low Register seems "pulled to E"

[malcalevak]

Hey all,
I've encountered something a bit... strange with my YSL-648R.

I joined a Wind Ensemble, back in October, and started playing 3rd Trombone, which put me in touch with a lot of low notes I'd never really dealt with 20 years ago when I'd first been playing (I had a lil 20 year hiatus...).
So, I'd been working on improving that low range a lot. I definitely still need to do a lot of work, and have been following that Alan Ralph video to improve it. I can hit a low-C, most of the time, but I digress.

The main reason I'm writing is because I quickly discovered something odd about the horn. Trigger 1st position, which I'd expected to be a low-F, is actually a low-E - and there's no way I could lip it up. The trigger tuning slide is also all the way in. The other trigger positions are similarly off, E flat is roughly 2.5, etc.

In the upper registers, as best I can tell, everything plays as expected, it's only the lower register that's different. My brain is having a bit of trouble wrapping its head around this lol, I'd think it would impact every register. I've read that some trombonists will intentionally "pull to E" to play the low register, but my understanding was that it would impact all registers, and wouldn't be the default.

Has anyone else encountered anything like that? Doing some research, I did find one other person appeared to have the same experience with the YSL-648, but it seems like it should be documented somewhere if it was intentional? (For reference: https://www.8notes.com/f/30_239171.asp)

[Burgerbob]

Play an F in the staff, and put the valve down (while still playing the same note). How is it tuned?


It's very common for players to play that low F in first without engagement, which makes it flat.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The low F in trigger + 1st position is a problematic note for many trombone players. It tends play under-the-center for many players because they have not developed the skill set to control the note. When teaching my students, I refer to this as the “wet, droopy washcloth note.” It will sink like a stone thrown into water, unless you have a game plan to deal with it.

There are some tests you can do to set if the problem is the trombone or the problem is you…..

1. With the F attachment tuning slide all the way in, play a mid-range F to the C (a perfect 4th lower), using the trigger only on the C. Go back forth several times in half notes at a slow tempo.

2. Again, with the F attachment all the way in, play a mid-range F in 1st position and then the SAME NOTE in trigger 1st position. Again, go back and forth several times in slow tempo half notes.
——————-
If during both of these tests, the trigger notes register as slightly sharp to significantly sharp, relative to the regular F, the horn is probably fine and you have not developed your low trigger register skills.

Here are some things to consider:

*The low F and its corresponding pitches (E in 2.2, E-flat in 3.5, D in #5, D-flat in 6.1, and C in 7.5) require specific air and embouchure skills. For many players, it takes a lot of time and practice to gain mastery of these notes.

*The most problematic pitches (most under the center) are F in trigger 1st and E in trigger 2.2. The farther you get away from the F, the easier it is to get the notes up to pitch.

*For most players, the embouchure must actually be FIRMER on these trigger notes than the pitches above them. This is a weird concept for many players.

*For most players, the air must move FASTER than the air moves for the 5 or 6 chromatic pitches above the trigger F. Again…….another concept that baffles many players, this is a must.

*Many inexperienced players try to play low F in trigger at mezzo piano or softer……this creates more problems. Players who are learning these notes must play mezzo forte or louder in order to get the notes up to the center of pitch.

*You might wish to experiment with changing the lip pressure point when playing in this register. I tend to place slightly more pressure on my bottom lip for most of the registers of the trombone. I tend to place a little more pressure on my upper lip for this set of notes. I was lucky that I naturally learned this without knowing I was doing it. It was not until I read about it in a Jeff Reynolds book (retired bass trombone, Los Angeles Philharmonic).

*Have an experienced trombone player try to play those notes on your trombone. That would be very telling if the problem was the instrument or the person.

I hope this helps. I deal with this frequently in my studio. Currently, I have two students really struggling with this, but they are steadily improving.

[tbonesullivan]

I picked up a very nice exercise that really helped me with the valve register, which actually can be played without the valve. It taught me really good control of the pitch in that register.

Start out playing a low Bb in first position, then slur down to the F false tone while moving the slide out to 2nd position. Then continue with A in 2nd position slurring down to E in third, and so forth. False tones are harder to control, just like playing upper register notes out in the higher positions.

After this, then do the same thing, but instead use the valve, with the appropriate positions.

[Doldom]

My Conn 72H horn was like that. Trigger first position C is in tune, but low F is barely in tune or lower. Some high profile professional bass trombonists checked my instrument and noticed the same thing. The tendency exaggerates when using bigger, deeper mouthpiece. I saw a post somewhere that some horns have intentionally low tuning to facilltate low C in 7th position.
Check if you're using too big mouthpiece, if the valve compression is ok, and if it's not embochure problem but really tuned low intentionally, you can just use low F in 6th position. Or shortening the F attachment tuning slide is a way.

[imsevimse]

Could be many reasons. Can you play a nice low F on 6:th position you should be able to do the same F on trigger 1:st position. If the sound is bad and flat it could be a leak in the valve or you are doing something differently with your emboushure. If you are dong well on the open horn F but the F on trigger 1:st comes out as flat AND still with an open sound then the problem could be how you tune your horn. Then I mean the tuning of the open horn in the combination with the F trigger. I try to explain what I mean. I play tuning Bb off the bumper on the open horn. When I do this all positions on the open horn naturally also need to be further out on the slide, the 6:th position F too. Then when I tune the trigger I push the tuningslide all the way in and play trigger F at the bumper. If there are springs like on some models I even push the springs in too.. Since I started to tune/play like this I have never experienced my trigger F on first as flat, so it was really the open horn that needed to be tuned different to fix that problem.
To summarize I tune the open horn sharp and play long positions (Bb 2 inches off the bumpers) and I tune the F-trigger sharp and play short positions (F pushed against the bumpers).

/Tom