Which Would You Choose? King 3B options

[Jhereg]

Long time no see :p

I am considering picking up a "generic" small bore tenor for commercial playing, and DJ Kennedy has let me to two King 3Bs currently for sale (he wrote to someone else about them recently, you can read that conversation HERE viewtopic.php?p=242665&hilit=king+3b+dj#p242665.)

I want to ask your opinions on which you would choose. I've never been a "gear head" so have limited knowledge of the pros/cons of some trombone features or why X might be preferable over Y, that sort of thing.

The two 3Bs in consideration:

King 3B "Cleveland Era" 1960s: Current owner Mike Corrigan/BAC Music. Has Brass Lab Burt Herrick leadpipe. Original lacquer and case. Previously owned by John Tyler of the Glenn Miller Orchestra, has been played commercially on ships and whatnot.
DJ's description: "the minty one is very flexy jjesque / If you totally into a 3B."

King 3B circa 1955 SN 351857: Current owner Rodney Lancaster, he's got a listing for it on his fb page as well as a short demo vid: https://www.facebook.com/thejazztrombone. It's all-original as far as he knows, except that he's had it relaquered by Taylor Music. May-or-may-not come with a case or gig bag.
DJ's description: "The golden one55 has a lyrical and very lovely feeling"

Other Notes:
- Pricing for both horns is similar/within a few $100 of each other.
- I'm in touch with both sellers, this info all comes from them.
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
- I understand that while I'm considering options someone else could swoop in and pick these up. That's totally fine, your feedback will still help me and possibly other folks with perspectives and decision-making in the future

All of that said...which would you choose?

Thanks!

[ssking2b]

You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.

[Jhereg]

You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.

I had that information but clearly the brain cell that was holding it, dropped it
So much for the leadpipe theory then! (Have now edited original post to delete that part)

I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.

Thanks for that info and the XO rec!

[Posaunus]

You are aware the Williams you have is .500 bore and the 3Bs are .508? I would consider a 2b+ or and XO 1632 RGL-LT to be closer to the Williams blow.

I'm not opposed to a slightly larger bore as I still actively play my large bore too.
In a few days a friend is sending me a 2B to try, conveniently.

Megan,

The King 2B (0.481"/0.491" dual bore) will not blow like a Williams 6 (0.500" bore).
Nor will a King 3B (0.508" bore).
The King 2B+ [= 2B Plus] (0.500" single bore) may come closer, as might the XO 1632.
Lots of other 0.500" bore trombones often available used at very affordable prices
(e.g., Conn 48H, Conn 6H, ...)
ALL can be wonderful and fun to play.

But the William 6, by all descriptions, is unique, so you'll definitely have to get used to another blow.

[Burgerbob]

I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.

[Finetales]

Based on DJ's descriptions, you want the '60s horn.

A 3B won't play like a Williams 6 (nothing does), but I think you'll like it. I've played many 3Bs and multiple Williams 6s at DJ's place and would have been happy to walk out with any of them. He knows his horns.

[Posaunus]

viewtopic.php?t=36182

Bob (Fairlane57) is a great TC member. If he says it's a good trombone ... it IS!

[Jhereg]

Thanks y'all for this feedback! I just found out there's ALSO a Williams for sale so now I REALLY have food for thought haha. My leaning has also been toward the 60s horn. We will see how far I get with all this.

[JohnL]

Are you settled on a straight tenor? If not, you might give some thought to a 3B/F. I know Aidan (Burgerbob) has put a lot of miles on his.

Long time no see :p

Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.

[Jhereg]

Are you settled on a straight tenor? If not, you might give some thought to a 3B/F. I know Aidan (Burgerbob) has put a lot of miles on his.

Long time no see :p

Good to see you're still out there making music. An acquaintance is headed off to KC to work for BAC, which got me to wondering how you're doing.

Hi John

The reason I'm looking for a straight tenor is because up until now, I've played the Williams on E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. The circus, a cruise ship, various local pit gigs, on national tours...and now at Disney.

At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently

My Williams is all-original and has never needed major repair in it's whole life (knock on wood). Between the horrific FL weather and the chance that it could get hit/damaged during audience interaction (there's a part where I hand out maracas while also holding my horn) I don't want to play it in the park. But! The only other small bore tenor that I have is my Minick Which is ALSO not really replaceable, and is also not a good fit for me as a player.

I'm not desperately looking--I only have four more scheduled days at Disney anyway--but thought it would be good to have a horn that I can use for outdoor work or for situations where The Historical Instrument Collection might be put at risk :p

Incidentally, I am also looking to replace my Bach 42A at some point..also very casually looking, no rush, just discovered after a decade of being away from my Bach that it's no longer a fit for the player I became over that time. Wanted to try one of the new Getzens but they're backordered for months, and now waiting to see when O'Malley horns out of Chicago might become available. But all that said I'll bookmark the 3B/F, thanks for the suggestion!

Kind of a long answer, sorry!

[modelerdc]

Without play testing I'd buy the one with the original lacquer. It's had a lead pipe change, so be prepared to change that if it's not to you liking. EZ if the replacement lead pipe is not soldered in. Relacquer jobs may hid previous repairs and looks are no guide to how it plays.

[JohnL]

The reason I'm looking for a straight tenor is because up until now, I've played the Williams on E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. The circus, a cruise ship, various local pit gigs, on national tours...and now at Disney.

At Disney. Outdoors. In Florida. With the kind of summer we're having currently

Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where. They've also both played a LOT of instruments so they're pretty well placed to offered informed advice.

Kind of a long answer, sorry!

It's all good. Just glad you're still fighting the good fight. It sounded like things were a little rocky there for a while after Ringling's shut down.

[harrisonreed]

Having been a 3B fan for a long time, and knowing how 3Bs tend to be from horn to horn ... I'd pick the 3B!

[Finetales]

Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where.

I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.

I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.

[Jhereg]

Both Aidan (Burgerbob) and Tiffany (Finetales) play at Disney here in SoCal on a pretty regular basis, so they're probably dealing with playing situations not too far removed from your own (absent the horrific humidity). Like I said, I know Aidan uses his 3B/F a lot (at least as of a few months ago); Tiffany also has one, though I don't know how much she uses it and where.

I only play bass trombone at Disneyland (for now...still waiting to crosstrain on a tenor part!) but quite a few of the tenor players play Kings in the park. I played next to Aidan on his 3BF last week and he sounded great on it like always.

I play my 3B and 3BF (and 607!) a LOT - they are probably the trombones that leave the house the most! I use them in all sorts of situations and they're always great. And since they're already old and worn, I don't have to worry about beating them up.

Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder

I’ve seen videos of the Disneyland Band and y’all are FANTASTIC. Larger band than we have, and more choreography. I’m just a sub over here but very much admire and appreciate the original CA band!!

[Finetales]

Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder

Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!

[Jhereg]

Thank you! VERY much appreciate your insights! CA weather is a little less…uh…SEVERE than in WDW haha. Yet, it sounds like the 3B is a great all-rounder

Ohhhh yes...I do NOT miss that Florida humidity at WDW!

JEALOUS OF YOU

[Jhereg]

It's all good. Just glad you're still fighting the good fight. It sounded like things were a little rocky there for a while after Ringling's shut down.

Ah well..when I'm not tromboning I'm doing data entry for $12/hour, so things are still not exactly "smooth" haha. But am grateful for the tours and for Disney opportunities that came up post-pandemic!

Hope you're doing well

[bassclef]

I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.

Seconded.

I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.

In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.

[Finetales]

There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.

[Posaunus]

There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.

I have played a King 3B Concert "SilverSonic" (S/N 4244xx, ~1967?), and own a King 3B-F Concert (S/N 6982xx, ~1976?). No other basis of comparison, but these are both fine instruments - robust, easy to play, nice tone.

As others have said the 3B-F is quite versatile, even with the original soldered-in leadpipe; will accomodate a variety of mouthpieces and playing styles.

[Finetales]

As others have said the 3B-F is quite versatile, even with the original soldered-in leadpipe; will accomodate a variety of mouthpieces and playing styles.

Yes, that's part of the magic of the 3B - it's happy with pretty much any mouthpiece. It's not picky!

[Matt K]

I don't think anyone has explicitly mentioned it as a recommendation but you might want to consider a 3BF or King 607F as a compliment to the Williams, since it won't play identically anyway --- the F attachment gives a lot of extra versatility. The 607 is a smaller medium bore so it would be slightly more contrasting than a 3BF both play awesome though.

[Jhereg]

I don't think anyone has explicitly mentioned it as a recommendation but you might want to consider a 3BF or King 607F as a compliment to the Williams, since it won't play identically anyway --- the F attachment gives a lot of extra versatility. The 607 is a smaller medium bore so it would be slightly more contrasting than a 3BF both play awesome though.

Actually, I did get a recommendation for a 3B/F somewhere above! But still, thank you. I'll keep it in mind but so far haven't found myself in a situation where I needed a trigger while playing a small bore, on the gig I'm looking to use this for.

The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.

[JohnL]

The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general.

Both the 3B and 3B/F tick that box, but the 3B/F brings a little extra versatility. In a section of three or four, with a bass trombone on the bottom part? Not significant in the vast majority of situations. But in a small horn line, particularly if there's no bari sax? A few strategically placed low notes can really fatten up the sound.

[Finetales]

Actually, I did get a recommendation for a 3B/F somewhere above! But still, thank you. I'll keep it in mind but so far haven't found myself in a situation where I needed a trigger while playing a small bore, on the gig I'm looking to use this for.

The ONLY reason I'm looking to pick up another horn is because I don't want the Williams outside in the Florida 108F heat index and torrential downpours and "crowd interactions" at Disney and/or outdoor gigs in general. It has nothing at all to do with range.

You'll be happy with either the 3B or 3BF. My pair plays exactly the same, the only consideration for which I pick is "do I want the valve or not?" If you feel like you don't need the F, don't get the F. 3Bs and 3BFs grow on trees, so you'll never be short of options if you change your mind!

At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.

The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.

[Matt K]

I didn't think I'd ever want a small bore with an F attachment but now, all my smallbores have them! It ends up being pretty handy to facilitate playing in the bass clef register, although as noted, the King small bores have a much better low range than they should and it is cool to sub for a bari sax or drop lines down an octave too. Being able to play B and C in a closer position really opens up things like, for example, the B half dim arpeggio in Donna Lee. Certainly possible on trombone, but it's a heck of a lot easier with the F attachment. Either way, it's really hard to go wrong, 3B and 3BF are both great horns!

[Jhereg]

You'll be happy with either the 3B or 3BF. My pair plays exactly the same, the only consideration for which I pick is "do I want the valve or not?" If you feel like you don't need the F, don't get the F. 3Bs and 3BFs grow on trees, so you'll never be short of options if you change your mind!

At Disneyland, all 3 tenor parts have a lot of 6th and 7th position notes, so the F attachment is nice to have. I don't know if the Main Street Phil tenor books are the same way.

The 3BF really excels at things like musicals, wedding gigs, etc., but you may not need that capability.

Ah interesting! Thanks

For Main Street Phil, I'm a sub on the lead book. It is VERY high for a sustained amount of time! We have a three-page Encanto Medley where I barely get below an E haha. Book 2, I've seen people play on either an F attachment or straight. And for Book 3 everyone needs the trigger.

We just got shunted back onto part time hours (womp wooomp) and I'm just a sub, so currently I have four more performances in the park and nothing scheduled after that. If I were a regular member I'd be more considerate of long-term versatility for intense outdoor playing, but taking into account all the other types of gigs I play (does include musicals and weddings!) the Williams and my Bach 42 have been totally fine, I haven't needed a 'tweener yet, but I can see from your descriptions and others chiming in that it should definitely be on my radar to snag one at SOME point, whether that's now or later

(eta) My other hang-up here is that I'm likely not going to get to try before I buy, which is making me hesitant to commit...hence coming here to pussyfoot about it and gather opinions

[Jhereg]

I didn't think I'd ever want a small bore with an F attachment but now, all my smallbores have them! It ends up being pretty handy to facilitate playing in the bass clef register, although as noted, the King small bores have a much better low range than they should and it is cool to sub for a bari sax or drop lines down an octave too. Being able to play B and C in a closer position really opens up things like, for example, the B half dim arpeggio in Donna Lee. Certainly possible on trombone, but it's a heck of a lot easier with the F attachment. Either way, it's really hard to go wrong, 3B and 3BF are both great horns!

Cool! Does indeed sound handy. Up to this point I haven't come across the need for a small bore F, but can see how having one could be super useful in lots of situations/music. I can think of some musicals where there's just that ONE note that needs a trigger, how annoying haha.

I'll keep this on my radar and see if anyone's selling 'em. Thanks!

[Jhereg]

I'd personally go for the '60s horn, I think.

Seconded.

I have experience with a couple '60s 3Bs. The fact that it doesn't have the original leadpipe is a plus, IMHO.

In the 3B universe - the HN White - Cleveland models, of which I am sure this is one, are sort of considered by many to be the standard to which all other eras of 3Bs get compared.

Awesome, thank you for your view on this! It's so dang tough...I wasn't planning to spend $$$$ this summer, but when good horns pop up at a time of need...they're here and then they're gone. So I really appreciate your (and everyone's) feedback that'll help me decide what to do.

[bassclef]

There are advocates for every era of 3B, as they all play well. Thanks to DJ, the loopy engraving ('70s) is my favorite/preferred era.

Yeah, I have read a lot about that era as well, I remember DJ saying that salsa players sought those out.

That's the only age of 3B I have never personally tried, but I'd like to. I have only ever owned 2 60's and 2 from the 80s (engraved 2103 on the bell with the KING counterweight sticker). Preferred the 60s for overall sound characteristics. The 80s were really not far off of that but seemed easier to play as the lacked some of the intonation and response inconsistencies. That is actually why I remarked that I thought it was good that the factory leadpipe was gone from the edition Jhereg is considering. I definitely would have yanked that out if I kept one of the 60s horns.

[bassclef]

(eta) My other hang-up here is that I'm likely not going to get to try before I buy, which is making me hesitant to commit...hence coming here to pussyfoot about it and gather opinions

I totally understand that!

I think this is one of the great (non-musical) characteristics of a used 3B - if you get it for a fair price and it's in decent shape, you will almost never lose money selling it on if it's not the one for you.

[harrisonreed]

Maybe my comment was seen as facetious, but 60's 70's 90's and even the most recent ones from 2020 all play like 3Bs. I never tried one from the 80s or early 2000s, though.

There might be subtle differences, but they aren't that big. And that goes for Bb/F vs Bb only, too.

I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide. I had my leadpipe from my late 60s SS pulled and made press-fit. The OG pipe is a big factor in how the thing plays, but options are always nice.

It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.

[mazman]

6H is worth a look at .500 bore. I think they're a little easier to play than a 3B, especially above Bb5.

[JohnL]

One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.

[Posaunus]

One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.

I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!

[Jhereg]

I'd grab whichever one has the smoothest slide.

It's almost a shame that you see the 3B as a beater to use instead of the Williams, but I totally understand the reasoning and the value of the Williams horn. The 3Bs are such great horns, you'll love it in the setting your planning to use it for.

Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth

Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.

I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.

Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby!

[Jhereg]

One thing about a 3B/F; there are those who find the trigger configuration to be an issue. Before you buy one without playing it, you might want to see if you can find someone local who has one that you can look at and see if it fits your hand.

I do like my 3B-F. But John is right - the ergonomics of the valve are "questionable." My 3B-F is from ~1976, with a string linkage on the valve. (Newer versions are different.) Using the valve lever is a bit awkward for me. My left thumb is not in the best position to comfortably operate the valve. Otherwise I really treasure this (very affordable) trombone, which has a great slide, smooth valve, and a nice sound!

Ah thanks guys, these are great points!

[Jhereg]

6H is worth a look at .500 bore. I think they're a little easier to play than a 3B, especially above Bb5.

That's fair, thanks for the recommendation!

[MrHCinDE]

If the floor is open to other suggestions, a Benge 170 Freelance might just fit the bill. It’s related to a 3B in some aspects, probably closer to a 2B+ (0.500”) in Gold Brass, either way a very cool sound, excellent playability and relatively good value compared to some very sought-after horns.

[RJMason]

Between those 3Bs I’d personally go with the 60s one if the price isn’t too much.

Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.

You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.

Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.

My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).

Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.

Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?

[Jhereg]

If the floor is open to other suggestions, a Benge 170 Freelance might just fit the bill. It’s related to a 3B in some aspects, probably closer to a 2B+ (0.500”) in Gold Brass, either way a very cool sound, excellent playability and relatively good value compared to some very sought-after horns.

Thanks!

[Jhereg]

Between those 3Bs I’d personally go with the 60s one if the price isn’t too much.

Other options: consider a Yamaha. I have owned and played numerous 3Bs, as well as 6Hs, a Williams 7, and a Minick .500, but was also worried about using an irreplaceable horn at work. I find that Yamahas are built consistently and the 891 has a light brass slide and nickel crook that feels like a Bob Williams slide when broken in.

You aren’t going to have the same feedback as the set back bell on any of these horns, would have to go to Bach or a Conn ballroom model. But I wouldn’t recommend either for outdoor gigs due to lack of wide projection or too old/too tight.

Easy to find a new one. If it breaks go to sweetwater lol. Many think they sound boring or uninteresting, but you have a Williams and a Minick so if you need brass alchemy for a job just take one of those out.

My Yamaha reminds me of a Bach some days, a King 3B other days, and a Williams on occasion (especially from the other side of the bell on recordings).

Also think it’s useful for a musician to have the Yamaha sound profile in their horn stable.

Or buy two well used 3Bs for the price of a used Yammie and get them rebuilt knowing you have backup parts. Make one screw bell for travel. Tons of options, but once again, if you already have rare vintage magic, why not widen the palette with a solid modern sound concept?

That seems like a good strong argument, thanks!

[MStarke]

I might be totally wrong, but I thought that the Schmelzer trombones might be somewhat following the idea of the Williams trombones? I have never played a Schmelzer or Williams, so really just an idea. And I don't know how available the Schmelzers are in the US.

[hyperbolica]

....
- My primary small bore is an LA Earl Williams Model 6, and my goal is to have a secondary horn that comes somewhat close to the openness and playability that I enjoy on the Williams, with the full understanding that there will not be any perfect match.
....

If I were a Williams player and I wanted another 500 bore kinda close, I'd start with something kinda like a Williams. My impression of Williams is that they are heavy horns.

The 3B really isn't like that at all - it's relatively bright and light. It's got a bit of a cult following recently around here, and turns up as the answer to every question. They're fine horns, but at the risk of overthinking things, I think there are better instruments available.

Heavy is going to be Lawler, maybe Edwards or Shires or the Courtois 402. Schilke/Greenhoe or the Schmelzer mentioned might be a great option. Or if you're looking for a more available, affordable horn, maybe an Olds, say a Studio or Recording. Or in Conns a 30h has a great sound, and of course the 48h is fairly heavy with a nice malleable sound.

Personally, of all these, I'd pick either the Schilke/Greenhoe or 48h.

If you really don't mind a lighter horn, I'd pick a Getzen 3508 over the 3B any day. Of course it doesn't have an F attachment.

[Jhereg]

I might be totally wrong, but I thought that the Schmelzer trombones might be somewhat following the idea of the Williams trombones? I have never played a Schmelzer or Williams, so really just an idea. And I don't know how available the Schmelzers are in the US.

The bracing looks visually like a Wiliams. They're using silver/gold, but nothing wrong with doing whatever sounds awesome I'm sure. Never heard of this brand, pretty cool!

It's ok, I can count on one hand how many people actually answered the question that I asked in this post Appreciate learning something new about who's making what trombone-wise in the world!

[Matt K]

I think the Yamaha get slightly erroneously typecast because of the designs of some of their models. There is actually quite a bit of diversity in the Yamaha lineup and their small bores have never played "boring" to me, FWIW. Their newest models with the screw bells are excellent, actually. Some of their medium and intermediate series have fairly heavy, one-piece bells with unsoldered beads and those could be characterised as "boring", although I played one for several years (the YSL356) and found it to be reasonably easy to balance with mouthpiece and leadpipe selection. Their medium bores are also all "large" chassis like the Edwards, Shires, and Bach selections and their "pro" medium bores have 8.5" bells which is an odd choice for me, but I think their target market were people downsizing large equipment rather than upsizing small equipment.

The 3508 is also a great horn. I have a 3508Y bell on my King 607 franken horn and love, love, love it.

[harrisonreed]

Re: smooth slide: Yes absolutely…except I have no way of knowing which has the better slide as they’re from two different sellers in different parts of the country! Trusting that they’re both wonderful slides, as both sellers are professionals themselves. And trusting that my buddy Pat Gullotta will be able to make either slide silky smooth

Re: 3B vs Williams in an amusement park: I hope I didn’t say anywhere that I’d value a 3B any less. In all ways I’d protect and care for it just as I do my rare horns. But I think you understand: once the Williams is gone…it’s gone.

I may end up valuing the 3B just as much as, or more than, the Williams. But if the 3B gets damaged, there are good odds that I can find another one just as good.

Rarity aside, the Williams IS my primary axe. I’ve used it on almost every single gig I’ve had for the past ten years because I love how it plays! It would be a shame to lose my favorite, primary horn. Whether it were a Williams or a pawn shop King 606 I’d want to protect mah baby!

Oh yeah! Like I said, I understand completely - a Williams is special. I'm sure you've played 3Bs before, so you probably already know that they are special in their own way. Since you have a good slide tech and the source is already good, yeah, go for the 60's one.

If you can ... get that lacquer stripped, too. Especially if you decide you like it after playing it for a while. I had my SS stripped recently and the thing is even more magical now. The fact that those horns play well in spite of that thick lacquer is something.

Respect! Good luck at Disney and I hope you love the horn you get!

[Posaunus]

It's ok, I can count on one hand how many people actually answered the question that I asked in this post Appreciate learning something new about who's making what trombone-wise in the world!

It's a TromboneChat tradition - there's almost no topic that we won't divert into tangents - or even completely unrelated territory.

Enjoy your 3B - and thanks for initiating an interesting (if off-topic) discussion.

[Finetales]

Since the Yamaha small bores have been brought up, I find that they're pretty polarizing. I personally can't stand the 891Z or 897Z, with or without screw bell. And I've tried quite a few!

The older models (651, 653, etc.) might be a different story, and I'd love to try them. But I find that in general, most players like a small King. The staggering amount of pros that use them says something...but then again, plenty of pros use the Xenos too. So what do I know?