Specializing smallbores by purpose/setting?

[MStarke]

How far do you differentiate the smallbore (let's assume appr. from King 2b to 3b size...)by the specific setting you are playing in?

Do you have one smallbore that you play for small group jazz, bigband, ballads etc.? Do you play a different horn for lead or 2nd in a bigband?

I double on bass, large, small tenor, alto and euphonium and don't necessarily want to differentiate even more.
So currently I play a 6h (actually 3 different ones) for everything that calls for smallbore.
For me it seems to work well for my purposes, but I would like to know how others handle it?

[Finetales]

I use a 3B or 3BF for everything requiring small bore. Eventually I plan to get a 6H, at which point the roles will be a little more specialized. But it's not a priority, because the 3B does everything well. The decision only comes down to whether or not the valve will be useful, such as in musicals or big band 3rd trombone. I also have a 607, which is essentially a 3B+F, and that's a nice option to a have available as well.

[RJMason]

I specialize more in the studio. There are certain things that work better with a smaller than 8 inch bell. For me a Bach is the best sub 8 for microphone work.

I have a Bach 8 for things where I’m playing with more than one trumpet player and acting more like a higher brass instrument in the writing.

I used a Conn 6H for a long time (before it was smashed on a plane) and I loved that horn for the above, but also blended really well with French horns and mellow instruments.

I have a Yamaha 891ZD for when I may be playing closer to sax in the writing and/or need to fill a Bari sax register type roll. Sonic spaces where I need a little more heft and roundness. This horn is great for practically everything though. Very 3B like, but a little more warmth and refinement in the sound, King meets Williams (based on my experience as a former owner of a model 7).

I use a Bach LT36B when I need the f attachment or if the writing leans more symphonic or does not need to sound hyper-commercial. If I had a valve on the Yamaha I would probably play that exclusively, just opting to change lead pipes and mouthpieces to dial it in.

On top of this there are times when a modern horn with the clarity provided by a company like Yamaha really is necessary to work well in the mix.

Other times I need more color and character and I turn back to the vintage Bachs. Having the option of modern or vintage helps me better play to the strengths of the piece I am writing and or recording for.

Playing live, hard to beat a 2B or 3B. This is a different ball game. For me the Yamaha or the Bach 36 will fill the live role. The new 891ZD can PROJECT!

Even though I grew up learning on a 3B I find them too common and unless played like JJ Johnson, got tired of the sound profile when played loud. I think the 2B+ is fabulous though, especially the 2B+G. Nice balance of heft, color, and focus. Ultimately, I like soldered rims on one piece bells and unsoldered on 2 piece, that’s just me. Yamaha being an exception, so I guess I now dig one piece, unsoldered, then bell cut lol

[Matt K]

I've majorly differentiated on that side of the spectrum. I have a 2B for lead playing, although I just picked it up so we'll see after next time I get a gig on it. I have a 500/525 w/ 7.75" bell and F attachment frankenbone that I use for most commercial section playing and a lot of combo work. I also have a medium bore Getzen that I use for combo work, and a 525/547 Getzen. It depends on how I'm feeling on a given day, tessitura, and other players which horn I grab.

[JLivi]

I have a Yamaha 891ZD for when I may be playing closer to sax in the writing and/or need to fill a Bari sax register type roll. Sonic spaces where I need a little more heft and roundness. This horn is great for practically everything though. Very 3B like, but a little more warmth and refinement in the sound, King meets Williams (based on my experience as a former owner of a model 7).

Playing live, hard to beat a 2B or 3B. This is a different ball game. For me the Yamaha or the Bach 36 will fill the live role. The new 891ZD can PROJECT!

Even though I grew up learning on a 3B I find them too common and unless played like JJ Johnson, got tired of the sound profile when played loud. I think the 2B+ is fabulous though, especially the 2B+G. Nice balance of heft, color, and focus. Ultimately, I like soldered rims on one piece bells and unsoldered on 2 piece, that’s just me. Yamaha being an exception, so I guess I now dig one piece, unsoldered, then bell cut lol

Damn Ray! Did you just get me to buy a Yamaha 891ZD now? Got me overthinking all the Kings I own now LOL

[OneTon]

I was playing a 0.500 bore Yamaha 653 on lead. My mentor told me I should get something smaller. I used a Bach LT6 and then a Yamaha 697 until I got a King 2B. I recently purchased a 0.480-0.488 Bart van Lier but the jury is out until I get a chance to use it. Other factors can come into play: What is in the book? How big is the hall? Is there a singer? For small group jazz or Frank Sinatra style I still prefer 0.500. If I am playing 3 sets, the lead is high, and I am backing a singer, then it is King 2B or equivalent. The Bach LT6 works well for brass quartet or quintet, especially if the other players are using small equipment. The LT42AG is a symphony horn or back up for my Duo-Gravis. I am experimenting with Shires 0.525, but not for jazz.

[tbdana]

I'm a minimalist. To my way of thinking, the horn is just an amplifier. The music is made by me, and the horn is just an extension of my body. If I play well and if I get a good sound, then I never need to change small bore horns. So if I have a good horn I can't think of any situation where I'd need to change between small bore horns.

I currently play a Bach LT16MG for all small bore applications. I love my sound on it. It's big and full and has lots of core, it's super sweet for ballads and if I lean on it I can really make it sizzle. I can play it in a small jazz combo, I can play lead in a big band, I can do commercial work (concerts and recording), and I've used it in place of an alto trombone in a symphony setting (specifically I used it on Beethoven's 6th symphony). It's wonderful for ballads and jazz. It's excellent for recording work. And it's full enough to work in classical settings in a pinch. Why would I change between small bore horns? I get a good sound on that horn, and then, to my mind, it's just a matter of the way I play it.

If I desperately needed a deeper sound or a brighter sound, the mouthpiece would be the only thing I'd think of changing.

[hyperbolica]

To me each horn has a personality, and I'm personally a bit moody. Different equipment fits different moods. The Olds Recording is stable and smooth. My 32h has a lot of personality that I haven't completely explored yet, but I believe it can play from Rochut to lead, concert band to quintet. The 48h is strong and dark, My Getzen 3508r is light and nimble, but also very malleable. My 3bf is bright and trumpety, but with the F attachment is also flexible. I've had 6hs and love them, kind of like the 8h of the small bore world, and yeah, you can play it in a lot of situations. But if you play it up against other small bores, you'll see that it has a distinctly different personality. 6h for me can range from dusky ballad horn to a sharp and biting lead horn. It's like the 48h with more subdued manners. For a real lead horn, my preference would be a 1930's Conn 24h. For Dixie, give me a NY Bach 6.

This is the reason I tend away from Yamahas. Some of them are kind of bland and without their own personality. Although I've heard some people like that even-keeled-ness about them. Same to a lesser extent with Shires, although a Shires MD+ could do just about anything.

The horn is like a lens through which your own personality can be focused or colored or amplified or distorted a little bit. If I'm playing in tbone quartet, I might use 3 or 4 different horns in a rehearsal, just because one tune requires a subtle more covered tone, while something else is sharp and bright.

I know people who just play one horn for everything, and that's ok, but music has different moods and personalities, so I try to match the horn to the feel of the music. I used to use just an 88h for everything until I got curious about what else was out there. There are a lot of great horns, and it seems a shame to leave so many of them unplayed.

[RJMason]

Jeff, I was definitely a Yamaha hater in my 20s, but the new one is something else. And given the sorry state of American manufacturing when I needed a modern horn at a solid price point that didn’t fall apart in a rehearsal, Yamaha was the only option that made sense at the time. Took a little adjustment in the blow and feel but I am very happy with it.

And regarding tbdana’s message: I love the LT16MG. I had a dual bore LT16G which I absolutely adored but simply could not compete in live settings with amplified bands without eating the mic. But all styles and recording it truly shined. Now I have my Bach 8 with a 12 bell, which I feel can keep up after some magic done by Lou Anderson in Boston. Still, these horns were designed for microphone use and acoustic scenarios with lower decibel readings than modern times. Can be quite hard to fill the room especially next to a sax player like Jeff Coffin, but that is not what they were designed to do so YMMV.

Also, the horn is indeed an amplifier. But professional guitarists use modern Kemper Profilers with many different amp presets saved. Or staying analog they will use a Blues Jr for something’s, a Princeton Reverb for others, a Marshall for heavy rock, an Orange, even a Roland Jazz Chorus. So I need different amps for my line of work. My equipment choices are based on which producers I’m working with and what sonic decisions may have to be made on paper and on the record.

Yes it’s a pain to learn a lot of horns. But also can be very fun. In the bass player world, they may get around better on a modern 5 string, but is the sound right? There is something about the choices they must make on the, occasionally uncomfortable, thick neck and action of a P-Bass (flat wounds or round strings?) and the sound of the instrument that just works in a mix. This is kind of how I approach my instruments. Yes, it is true that there are times it doesn’t matter as much for a trombone in the context of the completed recording, but when it does count can make or break my contributions to a hit record.

Once again, live playing is a different ball game. 3B is great! Lol

[Bleek]

I have very much changed my position on changing equipment for the job. I used to try and play everything on one small bore setup, one large bore setup and one bass setup.

I now have two setups on my small bore, Shires Marshall Gilkes. For jazz, not lead in a big band, larger horn section where trombone isn’t trumpet 2, some pops orchestra etc I’ll use the Marshall Gilkes mouthpiece and #3 leadpipe. For lead trombone, Dorsey stuff, Jerry Hey type horn playing etc I put in a sterling silver #2 leadpipe and an Ultimate Brass A1 or AR Resonance.

I do the same on my bass; 2 setups, one jazz/pop and one classical. Both are a leadpipe and mouthpiece change.

To me the leadpipe change with the mouthpiece is the thing. There is definitely a synergy between the right ones that completely changes the horn.

I always think I was scared to change equipment. But once I got over that it is so much more enjoyable to have a sound that matches what I hear in my head. For years I expected I should be able to sound equally great playing lead trombone and a Rochut on one setup, which is kinda crazy. I need to keep them all going but it’s working for me at the moment.

[dukesboneman]

I`m primarily a Bach player
For most of my playing I use a Bach Lt12G
I love the sound, It plays really open a freely, lots of color
I have a 42BO with the olson Valve for any Orchestral settings
I use an Lt36 for quintet playing or smaller Orchestral stuff.
I`m finding that a good 36B (or similar) would really come in handy. It would have really useful on the last show run I played
I do own 1 Yamaha (well 2, but one is going up for Sale soon) it`s a Yamaha 641 from 1975
All nickel but with a red Brass bell. .551 Bore, Why? Because I wanted it.
As Sam Burtis said - The right tool for the right job

[tbdana]

We all have our own minds on this topic. This thread reminds me of something I read in an audiophile forum. It went something like this: "Some people use audio equipment to listen to their music. Others use music to listen to their audio equipment."

I think there's a bit of that with musicians. Equipment is a rabbit hole that has no bottom. People get obsessed with equipment, going far beyond what others think is necessary.

Another analogy that is closer has to do with who you are. Some folks are trombone players, and they spend their whole lives working on playing the trombone. Other folks are musicians, and they work their whole lives on playing music, sometimes with a trombone. I think that speaks to people's different thought processes.

[Aznguyy]

I have a Yamaha 891ZD for when I may be playing closer to sax in the writing and/or need to fill a Bari sax register type roll. Sonic spaces where I need a little more heft and roundness. This horn is great for practically everything though. Very 3B like, but a little more warmth and refinement in the sound, King meets Williams (based on my experience as a former owner of a model 7).

Playing live, hard to beat a 2B or 3B. This is a different ball game. For me the Yamaha or the Bach 36 will fill the live role. The new 891ZD can PROJECT!

Even though I grew up learning on a 3B I find them too common and unless played like JJ Johnson, got tired of the sound profile when played loud. I think the 2B+ is fabulous though, especially the 2B+G. Nice balance of heft, color, and focus. Ultimately, I like soldered rims on one piece bells and unsoldered on 2 piece, that’s just me. Yamaha being an exception, so I guess I now dig one piece, unsoldered, then bell cut lol

Damn Ray! Did you just get me to buy a Yamaha 891ZD now? Got me overthinking all the Kings I own now LOL

The only thing stopping me from getting a 891ZD is that they don't have a trigger model... The 508 Yamahas are great Chameleon horns. I have a 895EN and think of it as a more mature and refined 3B.

[bassclef]

Sounds like there was a very small number of 891Zs w/f-attachment made (by Yamaha) in the European market.

The picture on this thread doesn't load anymore, unfortunately:
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12320

I would do...a lot of things to get my hands on one of those. I wonder if a few people were serious (and patient) enough to lay down some cash up front, if we could get a Yamaha Artist and/or sales rep help start the process which get a few more of those produced...

[RJMason]

We all have our own minds on this topic. This thread reminds me of something I read in an audiophile forum. It went something like this: "Some people use audio equipment to listen to their music. Others use music to listen to their audio equipment."

I think there's a bit of that with musicians. Equipment is a rabbit hole that has no bottom. People get obsessed with equipment, going far beyond what others think is necessary.

Another analogy that is closer has to do with who you are. Some folks are trombone players, and they spend their whole lives working on playing the trombone. Other folks are musicians, and they work their whole lives on playing music, sometimes with a trombone. I think that speaks to people's different thought processes.

For a trombonist like myself, having the right tool for the job is necessary. A Yamaha will work well on my arena tour and playing on TV with Chaka Khan while a vintage Bach will work well when I’m in the studio recording on the new Black Keys album or playing with Elvis Costello at The Beacon Theatre.

I could get away with doing everything on a Bach 36, but for trombonists who strive to work professionally at a very high level, developing the ears deep enough to identify different horns, their tones and how they are perceived by producers (visually! as well as sonically. It shouldn’t matter, but it does), on different microphones, and within different styles of music gives me an advantage which ultimately leads me towards the type of work I do.

Not trying to discredit your thought process, but that is my perspective and it works quite well for me. To each their own!

[RJMason]

Damn Ray! Did you just get me to buy a Yamaha 891ZD now? Got me overthinking all the Kings I own now LOL

The only thing stopping me from getting a 891ZD is that they don't have a trigger model... The 508 Yamahas are great Chameleon horns. I have a 895EN and think of it as a more mature and refined 3B.

The 895EN has one of the best tones I’ve ever heard from a small bore trombone. Was a bit too light for me and the lead pipe too tight for my style. With a couple tweaks I would be in business. Love that horn!!! The 891ZD takes on a little more of that sonic character with the yellow brass ring compared to the original. Need an f attachment!! Lol

[tbdana]

We all have our own minds on this topic. This thread reminds me of something I read in an audiophile forum. It went something like this: "Some people use audio equipment to listen to their music. Others use music to listen to their audio equipment."

I think there's a bit of that with musicians. Equipment is a rabbit hole that has no bottom. People get obsessed with equipment, going far beyond what others think is necessary.

Another analogy that is closer has to do with who you are. Some folks are trombone players, and they spend their whole lives working on playing the trombone. Other folks are musicians, and they work their whole lives on playing music, sometimes with a trombone. I think that speaks to people's different thought processes.

For a trombonist like myself, having the right tool for the job is necessary. A Yamaha will work well on my arena tour and playing on TV with Chaka Khan while a vintage Bach will work well when I’m in the studio recording on the new Black Keys album or playing with Elvis Costello at The Beacon Theatre.

I could get away with doing everything on a Bach 36, but for trombonists who strive to work professionally at a very high level, developing the ears deep enough to identify different horns, their tones and how they are perceived by producers (visually! as well as sonically. It shouldn’t matter, but it does), on different microphones, and within different styles of music gives me an advantage which ultimately leads me towards the type of work I do.

Not trying to discredit your thought process, but that is my perspective and it works quite well for me. To each their own!

Naw, it's cool. Different strokes for different folks. That was kind of my point. And I'm usually kind of out of step with the conventional thinking around here, anyway. I offer my thoughts mostly just so there will be someone with a different approach to read.

BTW, I played with Chaka Khan, too, though way back in the day, so we have one thing in common. And I did a musical she was in in L.A.

Back when I had a career, producers, composers and contractors didn't care what small bore horn I played, nor would they have recognized which horn was which, or have known what qualities any particular small bore horn had. I did hundreds of albums, TV shows, jingles, movies, live concerts, night clubs and tours, across all genres, with one horn. None of the people who hired me had any idea what horn I was playing (except Watrous, who gave me my horn), nor would that knowledge have meant anything to them. Your situation is obviously different, especially since producers you work for are attuned to what various small bore tenor trombones are and what they sound like. Which is pretty impressive, actually. (It baffles me why they would care what the horns look like.) So obviously our situations are different, as are our approaches to playing. No worries.

[Finetales]

The only thing stopping me from getting a 891ZD is that they don't have a trigger model...

Sounds like there was a very small number of 891Zs w/f-attachment made (by Yamaha) in the European market.

The picture on this thread doesn't load anymore, unfortunately:
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12320

I would do...a lot of things to get my hands on one of those. I wonder if a few people were serious (and patient) enough to lay down some cash up front, if we could get a Yamaha Artist and/or sales rep help start the process which get a few more of those produced...

The 892ZX has always been special order, so it may still be possible to special order one. At least 6 exist last I checked, and all were special ordered for the Swedish market. My experience is that if you E-mail Yamaha about an obscure model, a rep will absolutely get back to you.

But realistically, buying an 891Z and getting an aftermarket valve put on would be essentially the same thing. As that older thread mentions, they were normal 891Zs that had the valves put on by Yamaha of Germany to become 892ZXs. I wonder if they were YSL-356/456 rotors, or new tooling.

[RJMason]

[quote=RJMason post_id=230459 time=<a href="tel:1704843891">1704843891</a> user_id=3369]
[quote=tbdana post_id=230437 time=<a href="tel:1704838341">1704838341</a> user_id=16498]

Back when I had a career, producers, composers and contractors didn't care what small bore horn I played, nor would they have recognized which horn was which, or have known what qualities any particular small bore horn had. I did hundreds of albums, TV shows, jingles, movies, live concerts, night clubs and tours, across all genres, with one horn. None of the people who hired me had any idea what horn I was playing (except Watrous, who gave me my horn), nor would that knowledge have meant anything to them. Your situation is obviously different, especially since producers you work for are attuned to what various small bore tenor trombones are and what they sound like. Which is pretty impressive, actually. (It baffles me why they would care what the horns look like.) So obviously our situations are different, as are our approaches to playing. No worries.

Not so much they know the different between small bore horns, but I’ve found uses for horns that look unique, horns with something with clarity that can be identified easily and worked into a modern mix quickly, something that looks shiny, something that looks vintage, something that “sounds old” whatever that means. Something that sounds distorted. Etc. Maybe I get a creative brief for a digital AD and the example is a Glenn Miller type sound. Grab the little Bach.

Totally appreciate your perspective and career thank you for sharing!! Naturally, the industry has changed over times. All in a post genre ecosystem of music created by streaming. I spent a decade playing pretty much one horn for anything and felt a shift in enough situations to go with the multi horn approach. Anyway, Im having fun with all my horns lol

[MrHCinDE]

We all have our own minds on this topic. This thread reminds me of something I read in an audiophile forum. It went something like this: "Some people use audio equipment to listen to their music. Others use music to listen to their audio equipment."

I think there's a bit of that with musicians. Equipment is a rabbit hole that has no bottom. People get obsessed with equipment, going far beyond what others think is necessary.

I can relate to this to some extent. There are some horns which I’ve probably played more at home to figure out the horn rather than at rehearsals/gigs.

FWIW I have a 3B/F which can I can play in anything from big band 1st-3rd, concert band, 10-piece brass ensemble, 7-piece polka band and on rare occasions at a small group jam session. I don’t really need any other small bore horns but enjoy the challenge of learning new horns and there are so many easily available and affordable used small bore horns. Through the many horns I’ve tried, although not essential I have my current preferences for alternatives to my trusty 3B/F for specific settings:

2B Silvertone for the polka band or big band lead, it is very easy to play in the upper range and has a unique rich sound which I haven’t got from any other horn.

Benge 170 Freelance for gigs in sub-prime conditions. It wasn’t hugely expensive and I’m not as precious about it as the 3B/F and 2B Silvertone. On the other hand, it’s also a player and if I had to sell all other small bore horns and just keep one I’d be happy enough with the Benge.

I have another couple of small and medium bore horns which I’m still deciding what to do with.

[EriKon]

I've been doing mostly all small bore (leaving out medium bore) stuff on one horn for years which would have been my custom Lätzsch. And I would have changed to medium bore/large bore for everything that doesn't feel right on that one. But at some point I felt like the Lätzsch (508 bore) can be a bit of a hard blow especially when playing lead trombone in a big band. I often sat myself on 2nd or 3rd chair, because I was matching far better with bass trombone or as support for the lead player (usually others played smaller stuff).
But since a few years I get called for more and more lead trombone gigs which made me want a better horn for those gigs, so I got myself a Williams 6 (500 bore) and it's exactly what I wanted. Since then, I'm mostly using that Williams for big band lead gigs and combo work. But I also play a lot of duo and even some solo stuff, which sounds and works better on the Lätzsch. So for those things I switch back to the Lätzsch.

I don't see needing more on that side, but to me a good lead horn and a warm sounding 508 bore covers everything I need basically. But it also kind of worked with just a 508 horn. If you're able to change your sound depending on what music and position you play, it's perfectly fine. Just a little more work.

[MStarke]

Lots of great perspectives from some certainly better smallbore and jazz players than I am. Thanks for sharing!

I want to restrict my own approach a bit as I am trying to keep my playing level the same across bass to alto trombone and practice time is limited.
Still I sometimes think that a little lighter horn than the 6h might be a good addition - if it is close enough to the 6h in general feel, intonation etc. As said before the 6h for me feels like a good allround horn, however it could be a little lighter sounding and playing for some situations.

Luckily I just remembered the Conn 100h in the basement and played it again after not having touched it for half a year.
It could be just the desired variation. It still feels and reacts like a Conn, but like an extremely light version.
As there is not so much discussion on the 100h some points that I might have observed before:
- The slide seems to be comparably long, which is an interesting feature and makes 7th position a bit more stable
- The exchangeable leadpipe setup is a bit unusual and seems to not necessarily fit others that should be the correct size
- The leadpipes make a substantial difference, for my purposes it seems to make most sense to choose the smallest one
- It is REALLY light, slide as well as bell section. However (due to the long slide?) it is still a little bit front heavy
- Response is generally very very easy, it feels most at home at low to medium dynamic levels
- Very high range (+- Db/D upwards) is not bad, but feels quite different than the 6h. Will need some work

Will play it a bit more in the next weeks and see if this is the addition that makes sense for me.
Oh - one important point: The 100h until now has been the only trombone where my wife actually said "what a beautiful instrument"

For those people playing one horn exclusively - do you stay on the same mouthpiece as well independent of playing situation?

[EriKon]

We all have our own minds on this topic. This thread reminds me of something I read in an audiophile forum. It went something like this: "Some people use audio equipment to listen to their music. Others use music to listen to their audio equipment."

I think there's a bit of that with musicians. Equipment is a rabbit hole that has no bottom. People get obsessed with equipment, going far beyond what others think is necessary.

Benge 170 Freelance for gigs in sub-prime conditions. It wasn’t hugely expensive and I’m not as precious about it as the 3B/F and 2B Silvertone. On the other hand, it’s also a player and if I had to sell all other small bore horns and just keep one I’d be happy enough with the Benge.

I have another couple of small and medium bore horns which I’m still deciding what to do with.

I might be interested in something (if you plan to sell)

[EriKon]

For those people playing one horn exclusively - do you stay on the same mouthpiece as well independent of playing situation?

I did, back when I only had the Lätzsch. Even after switching to Doug Elliott setup (and I have a few) I stayed with the one I liked best. Only switched when I wanted to try out something different or new.

[tbdana]

For those people playing one horn exclusively - do you stay on the same mouthpiece as well independent of playing situation?

Almost a complete "yes" here. The only exception would be if for some weird reason I had to play classical music on the small bore horn (which never happens) I would use my 6 1/2AL because it gives a slightly more classical tone to my small bore axe.

[Cmillar]

Hmm...it seems that small bore Kings, Bachs, and Conns kind of 'set the standard' (via recordings and live recording) that pretty much every trombone player has aspired to for the last 100 years.

Then, those standards were kept up when players like small bore trombone players Jim Pugh, Andy Martin, and a couple of others (who have done the 'bulk' of publicly accessible) made a switch to an Edwards or a Yamaha.

Funny though....as Ian McDougall said when he switched to a Yamaha 697Z.." ...it's like my old King 2B but made better". (FYI...Ian was also instrumental in designing the original King 2B+ back in the '80's. His personal hero for trombone sound was Urbie Green, who set as standard playing King 2B's for a bulk of his recorded work) Also FYI: Ian was 'the sound' of a lot of trombone solos featured on Muzak back when they recorded in Toronto! So, everyone has heard him a lot)

Jim Pugh did years of work on a King 2B Silver Sonic which was totally versatile (as one can hear in all his great work, and then his Edwards .500)

Most of us grew up hearing the Bach 16M, 8, 6 too, right? (ie: Lloyd Ulyate playing lead on film scores and other work, Charlie Loper, Bill Watrous, and all the LA cats. And, NY cats like Keith O'Quinn, Birch Johnson, etc. etc. have all played Bachs for countless recording heard around the world as well.

Conn's were as ubiquitous as Kings and Bachs in the heyday of recording work, right? Countless players and recordings.

And, Williams trombones were 'The Horn' for years.

We've all heard great trombone playing set 'the standard' on several different types of horns. Kind of nice that there are many available now....new and used!

[BrassSection]

My experience with non-brass musicians is that most can’t tell the sound difference of one brand or model of an instrument from another, let alone knowing one brass instrument from another. Only regular professional in our group is the drummer, who is really a pro tuba guy, and have an occasional visiting pro trumpet player. Really hit home a few weeks ago when the song leader said “I really liked the trumpet on that last song!”…I was playing my euph on the last song! (He couldn’t see what horn I was using, he only could hear it.) And one time we had a sound engineer in to tweak our sound system…he thought my euph was a French horn.

[Matt K]

Oh yeah people definitely listen with their eyes. Did a gig not too long ago w/ flugel and trombone and I had a few people comment on how good my flugel sound was, on the half that I didn't use it for

[Finetales]

For those people playing one horn exclusively - do you stay on the same mouthpiece as well independent of playing situation?

I use two different mouthpieces with my 3Bs - a shallow Warburton for lead, salsa, funk, etc., and then a medium Hammond for lower big band parts, chamber music, musicals, orchestra pops concerts, etc.

[ngrinder]

Back when I had a career, producers, composers and contractors didn't care what small bore horn I played, nor would they have recognized which horn was which, or have known what qualities any particular small bore horn had. I did hundreds of albums, TV shows, jingles, movies, live concerts, night clubs and tours, across all genres, with one horn. None of the people who hired me had any idea what horn I was playing (except Watrous, who gave me my horn), nor would that knowledge have meant anything to them. Your situation is obviously different, especially since producers you work for are attuned to what various small bore tenor trombones are and what they sound like. Which is pretty impressive, actually. (It baffles me why they would care what the horns look like.) So obviously our situations are different, as are our approaches to playing. No worries.

I really feel that in the micro, it's not so much about the producers, MDs, or whoever - it's about the player, and how they feel they can best achieve the right sound (at least as it relates to the minutiae of equipment selection). It is beyond frustrating to me to be a bit off in whatever given situation, really for any reason... But to know it could work better with a slight adjustment in equipment is a real kick in the ass. Also, even if folks on the other side can't totally hear it *why* something isn't right, good ears will still pick up if the blend is off. I feel like good blend is what we as trombonists bring to a lot of situations and horn size really influences that.

For me, and there is a big caveat there, I find smaller bells (7.5in) tend to work better on Broadway and most relatively close mic'd studio situations. Larger bells (>7.5in) tend to cut over ride cymbals in more modern jazz/improvisatory settings, and just work better in pop/horn sections. In fact, over the past two days, I A/B'd two different setups in rehearsals for a gig on Friday with Darcy James Argue. The larger horn was simply easier to play and blend - I truly didn't have to work as hard. A lot of the Modern/Brookmeyer/BMI big band aesthetic can be thought of as something closer to a small wind band, which is why in NY .508/>7.5 seems to be trending (at least from my perspective, in those specific settings). If I'm playing small group, I'll go even larger and bring my 34 - I recorded my first album with a Benge 175F - and if I know I'm playing lead in a swing band all night, I'll probably reach for my smaller setup.

Similarly, I've done horn comparisons at same shows two days in a row, and found my smaller horn really works better for *most* pit situations. Maybe my pp doesn't overpower the clarinets, or my 3rd trumpet role in a shout nestles into trumpets that much better. In a small pit in a small room with twelve other people, this is what has been working for me. Obviously this can change depending on what room I'm in and about 1000 different factors, but over time this is *generally* what has *mostly* worked.

I dream of finding an "everything" horn and am continually searching and investing into one. Right now I use two small bore setups along with my big horn, medium horn, and my bass (and have a few setups for that...which I futz with, but much, much less). Maybe the small bore horn change only gives me a 10-15% edge, but that amount becomes exponential in certain professional circles or when considering comfort while soloing/improvising.

[RJMason]

Feel you on all of this Nick! Your perspective is naturally right on!

To clarify more for others, I’ve never had a producer or MD be like “oh yeah you need a 3B” or something. Still they have great ears generally and can def tell when the blend is right and everything hooks up.

I have been on sessions where the lead trumpet is like “have you thought about using a small bore Bach for this one?”. We blend better, the composer is online streaming the session and loves it, the contractor noticed that, I get hired again.

And I dislike when I bring one horn and really I should’ve brought another. A lot of print and soundtrack music sessions in Nashville you don’t get the music ahead of time. And when the sound instantly clicks it’s just easier to blaze through the sight reading with the other players. Maybe I’ll have a vague idea of what it’ll be by the contractors choices (if Paul Jenkins from Nashville Symphony is on the session, it could lean more .547 and less swing band, so maybe the .508/8 with a bigger mouthpiece is a better fit to bring alongside my 8H, which I’ll probably just end up using the whole time. Or I’m completely wrong and we’re blasting high C’s, or low Db’s, or playing swinging lines for three hours lol )

Harder in NYC to commute with multiple horns, but in Nashville I have brought 3-5 horns with me just to cover the bases. 2 smalls, 1 medium, 1 large, one bass.

To me it seems clear that these small bore perspectives are not only dictated by the individual’s musical approach or ethos…if you are a freelancer. If I get to the point where I can make a living exclusively as an artist, I would love to just play one horn. Maybe that switch will happen for me. I am working towards it (Stephens .525 anyone?!)

It does feel like splitting hairs to get that slight competitive edge, maybe 10-15 percent, maybe even less sometimes. But that is also what professional athletes strive for. And in today’s professional world it can make the difference between a producer/composer/MD thinking “that session went well” versus “I’m gonna call this person for everything I need a trombone on”.

A great thread, thanks everybody!

[Doug Elliott]

I have lots of horns in all sizes except .508, but I play my Williams 6 for virtually everything unless it's a classical gig. I have no problem making it fit in different situations, almost always on the same mouthpiece. The only exception was a run of In the Heights when I used my C cup instead of C+.

[modelerdc]

When you have a lot of horns most of them sit in the closet. You could for example, play a 2B for combo or lead and a 3B for section work and rock groups. But you’re even better off with a horn that’s more versatile. I play bass trombone the most, followed by small tenor and then large tenor. I have a set of Shires I like and a 3B and Holton Tr185 more for variety than necessity. I find mouthpiece selection more critical than which horn to use

[gbedinger]

Fascinating thread everybody!

[diminishedSeventh]

Damn Ray! Did you just get me to buy a Yamaha 891ZD now? Got me overthinking all the Kings I own now LOL

The only thing stopping me from getting a 891ZD is that they don't have a trigger model... The 508 Yamahas are great Chameleon horns. I have a 895EN and think of it as a more mature and refined 3B.

Also a happy owner of an 895EN. One of the few small bores that I can maintain a rather "large bore" esque sound but with the response and feedback of a small bore (especially with the Shires Marshall Gilkes piece, which broadens and adds more heft to the sound I can get out of it noticeably).

[RJMason]

The only thing stopping me from getting a 891ZD is that they don't have a trigger model... The 508 Yamahas are great Chameleon horns. I have a 895EN and think of it as a more mature and refined 3B.

Also a happy owner of an 895EN. One of the few small bores that I can maintain a rather "large bore" esque sound but with the response and feedback of a small bore (especially with the Shires Marshall Gilkes piece, which broadens and adds more heft to the sound I can get out of it noticeably).

The 895EN came out around 2007 I think? I wonder what it would have been like if more US players caught onto them. The sound is like butter and they play better than almost any new American made horn lol. I like how the horn balances perfectly in the hand slide grip if you place it on its side, slide doesn’t touch the table. One of these days I’ll order one to add to the collection.

[diminishedSeventh]

I'd wager the 895 would be quite a popular hold if regularly stocked and sold in the US. The all-brass construction is really something else. I've also been able to get a ridiculously massive sounding pedal range out of this thing! To be fair though, I think mine has a few quirks (mine has some weirdness with sympathetic resonance at certain frequencies that I can notice behind the bell) but the sound is night-and-day to most other horns I've tried.

Even the Rath I own (which fits the niche of a paint-peeler horn) sounds significantly less full and solid throughout my range than the 895. Folks that I've played with/for have remarked the same. Although, with respect to the topic in this thread, the reason I keep the Rath around is that the nickel bell on mine cuts like a laser even when with a big-band trumpet section.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to try the 891ZD, but I'd wager the cut bell makes a pretty significant change to how the horn responds. I'd love to try one sometime.

[ssking2b]

I use my XO 1632 RG-LT on all commercial tenor trombone gigs, with my custom mouthpiece. Occasionally I have used my 88H in a lit situation because I needed a trigger. I’m adding a Conn 50H to my line up that was mine in the 60’s. I sold it to a friend in 1971 and he is selling it back to me! I intend to use it if I need a trigger horn in a point show.

Everybody says to that no matter what horn I play, I sound like me…so I do use different horns for some things (88H for legit tenor or brass quintet things), but regardless of how the tamber of my sound may change, they still think it sounds like me!

My bass trombone I consider 1 size fits all.

I do my best to find out what I’ll be playing in a session, and bring the right tools and mutes for the gig. Occasionally I will have multiple horns with me, but not very often. I have never had a trumpet player make a suggestion about which setup I use, and really wouldn’t take that seriously (unless he was the contractor). I don’t expect the trumpets care at all about my opinion of what they play, so I wouldn’t expect one of them to ask me to play something different.

[Aznguyy]

Also a happy owner of an 895EN. One of the few small bores that I can maintain a rather "large bore" esque sound but with the response and feedback of a small bore (especially with the Shires Marshall Gilkes piece, which broadens and adds more heft to the sound I can get out of it noticeably).

The 895EN came out around 2007 I think? I wonder what it would have been like if more US players caught onto them. The sound is like butter and they play better than almost any new American made horn lol. I like how the horn balances perfectly in the hand slide grip if you place it on its side, slide doesn’t touch the table. One of these days I’ll order one to add to the collection.

Butter is best way to describe the sound on a 895EN. That all brass bell section is amazing. I've played pit shows where I am playing the F Horn book(trombone book literally doubles the horn book but the horn book has a lot more solos...) and would get compliments on the "Horn" sound from the audience. Dare I say it's too buttery for lead playing... I had to get a .500/8inch Yamaha recently to get a little more sizzle in my sound for some lead gigs. I actually want to pick up a cheap 697Z if they ever pop up.

Ray- Lightweight and balance without a counterweight! imagine that! There's a large bore(wrong thread... I know...) 823GD you might want to check out if you ever venture into the large bore world... It's a lightweight gold brass large bore. Very nimble and flexible sounding for a large bore. Same feel/design concept as the 895EN but bigger...

diminishedSeventh- you're the only other person I now know that uses an 895EN in the US! You just answered my question that I've been pondering on getting a Shires MG mouthpiece for the horn too!

[MStarke]

So a little follow-up just with some impressions.

A few weeks ago I subbed for a rehearsal on lead in a good amateur bigband. I took the 6h and discovered that 2nd and 3rd were playing large bores. Overall it went well, but balance didn't feel optimal. Next time playing with that band I might bring my medium bore Blessing for more horsepowers - or a trombone that's a little on the brighter side than the 6h.

Then this week I rehearsed again with another very good bigband. I didn't know in advance which part I would be playing and brought the Minick smallbore that I had not tried in public before. Turned out I played 3rd. It was interesting. Whenever I was playing in the mid or lower range (appr. in the staff and below), I am pretty sure the 6h would have sounded more convincing. But whenever it went a little higher - more or less anything above the staff - this thing begins to shine!

So it seems that overall the 6h will be my future choice for 2nd/3rd and the Minick for lead/1st parts. The Blessing medium bore could sometimes come in as well as the Conn 100h...

[PNeiteler]

That is also my observation that the most important factor about feeling “right” with the size of my own instrument is whether I can settle in between what my colleagues are playing on higher or lower voices. I do not feel comfortable if my colleague on first plays a bigger instrument than me or the colleague on a lower voice plays a smaller setup than me. I think that’s my main guideline to choose the most fitting instrument from my trombone selection.

[MStarke]

Just came home from a bigband rehearsal. We played mostly Chris Walden charts and comparable other music. I played my Minick smallbore on lead, 2nd on a Jupiter (student?) tenor, 3rd on a 48h Connstellation, bass on a Bach with Lätzsch valves. For this setting the Minick seemed ideal on lead. Very easy to play, very lively, but not too harsh/bright when pushed a little. It's interesting how sometimes things just fit. But maybe in another ensemble it doesn't...