Medium bore trombones - why?

[BGuttman]

I personally think the Medium Bore is being given the short shrift by the teaching community. A student who is not planning a career as a symphony player or in the film studios has no particular need of a large instrument. Size of student really doesn't matter, though. I played with a bass trombonist who was a five foot nothing wisp of a girl who could blow down the house on her Bach 50.

Teachers worried about sound on the football field would do better with a kid on a small bore who can be heard than a kid on a large bore who can't. Then again, I'm a fan of the cheap trombone in marching band where appearance often means more than actual sound.

I've found that a medium bore is a very versatile horn. Maybe you can't win the audition to the Boston Symphony on one, but once you have the job the medium bore horn fits nicely in many playing situations. And outside of Symphony Hall, a medium bore works very well (as I have said before) for a multitude of applications.

[harrisonreed]

I think the post that Harrison took issue with was not necessarily mine, but one a little further down.

Totally agree. It's not worth me explaining any further, other than that the topic as started is not about little kids. I was in no way debating the merits of step up horns for kids, and have no interest in doing that.

At the end of the day, if you sound awesome and love playing a 36b, that's your answer.

[Posaunus]

I wish I "sounded awesome" - but I don't.
However I do love playing my vintage Conn 79H (and also enjoyed the Bach 36B that preceded it). Especially now that I'm no longer playing in a larrge symphony orchestra! Medium bore trombones definitely have their place.

[OneTon]

Harrisonreed’s metaphor does not support the argument for only large bore horns. The CDL applicant in many states need only arrive at the practical test with a 2 axle (1 steering (front) axle and 1 driver (rear) axle) tractor, a single axle trailer, and air brakes. To avoid restriction to automatic (or computer shifted manual) transmissions, Road Ranger (10 speed) and/or Splitter (13 to 18 speed) transmissions are not specified. To avoid any restriction on their Class A CDL, the applicant need only arrive to the test with a 5 speed manual transmission, 2 axle tractor, a 1 axle 26 foot trailer, and air brakes, if such a rig could be found. Some operators have run that way, however. More applicants would utilize the smaller rig, but that combination is rarer than a medium bore horn. Operable trailers less than 26 feet might be allowed but are even more rare. With super single wheels and tires, the 18 wheeler just morphed into a 6 wheeler. Long live the French orchestras. Did anyone ever see a French orchestra section playing Bach 6 trombones?

Why, you may ask, use fewer axles and shorter trailers? Road and bridge load restrictions are based on weight per axle and length between axles. Why use a 4 pound sledge if a framing hammer will do?

[EOlson9]

I play a King 3b+F (2125F) as my main (only) tenor with F attachment. I play in community jazz band, community band, and pit orchestra. It works great for what I do.

[teotrombone]

Hello

I see it a bit like using a knife.
You can cut everything with a very big sharp knife. But you can take also a smaller one and make cutting easier or more precise for different things.

I have many instruments and I love to change them for different repertoire.
But I still do my daily stuff on one and same instrument.

[Posaunus]

I have many instruments and I love to change them for different repertoire.
But I still do my daily stuff on one and same instrument.

You have a nice collection of Benge trombones! What's your "daily?"

[teotrombone]

You have a nice collection of Benge trombones! What's your "daily?"
[/quote]

I use my 190F newer model for a daily horn.
I don’t know why, but I never had the opportunity to try a bad Benge.

[dukesboneman]

As someone that played Conn 78H`s and Bach 36`s ONLY for about 25 years, I really like that size.
Now currently I do most of my playing on a BachLT12G , If I had to go down to only ONE tenor it would be my Mount Vernon Lt36.
I Play in a sextet (2 trombones, tenor sax, Piano, Bass & Drums) where the 2nd trombonist plays a 36.So I use my 36 and the blend is great and slightly bigger than 2 small bore horns.
Brass quintet I use the 36. I 1st used my 42BO but it sounded to big and heavy.
That size horn is incredibly versatile and is , IMO the best All-around horn size

[MStarke]

Coming back to this thread - didn't realize it is more than 2 years old! - as I have just got an Elkhart Conn 78h in good condition that I accidentally found for a very good price.

Some impressions from the first playing session (which I think fit to what others said before):
- Surprisingly heavy (but smooth) slide, larger bell throat than I expected
- Very adaptable. With my regular smallbore mouthpiece it does feel and play kind of like a scaled up 6h, with a larger one it's more like a scaled down 8h

In the last two years I did actually come across more settings than expected that probably work better with a medium bore than my small or large bores. 3rd in a normal bigband setting, maybe also 1st in a wind band etc. Let's see. I got it for cheap, so it's worth a try.

[EriKon]

Still one of my favorite sizes. I just played my recently acquired Williams 8 for a week of modern bigband concerts and some musical shows. Did both things extraordinary well. I recently lent my 78H SPEC to a colleague who's trying it and I got his early corporation Bach 36B in exchange. Something about this bore size is just special, at least with me.

[MrHCinDE]

I‘ve ended up with a few, not really by design but it‘s going to be hard to decide which to keep and which to move on:

King 3B+, as original and with 607 bell section
Conn 78H SPEC, all in red brass
Bach Mercedes
Honorary Member: Edwards .525 slide compatible with my large bore setup

They‘re all so darn easy to play for my main playing interests of the upper trombone parts in small ensembles or a small symphony orchestra.

At the moment the Edwards slide will probably be first to go.

[hyperbolica]

525 is my go to. Tbone choir? Quartet? Quintet? Church gig? 1 or 2 in an orchestra? Unless it needs serious 547 power, low notes, or need for a lighter sound or harder articulation of a 500/508 bore, it's either the 79h or 88h w/525. The sound is more interesting.

If I don't know what's coming, sometimes I take a 547. Its a harder push, the sound doesn't shimmer up high, but you have some depth down low. I prefer a lighter sound when it makes sense. 547 is overkill 80-90% of the time.

[Posaunus]

For 2nd Trombone in a (medium-sized) orchestra, medium bore (my Conn 79H is 0.522") would seem to be a good choice for much repertoire - especially if the 1st Trombone is on an alto.

I would also consider using my Conn 88H with my dual-bore SL2547 Slide (I need a place to play it!), but the 1st Trombone plays a full 0.547". Where can I use that wonderful slide?

[Bach5G]

I look forward to the principal playing alto.

[Finetales]

All one really needs is a .547 and a 3BF. But in my case it is certainly nice to have a 607 for a little more beef in certain situations. Overall I think the "big small horn" .525s are more useful than "small big horn" .525s, but they both have their little niches.

[LeTromboniste]

I wish we could reframe the question into why do we even have these categories. Why is there, especially in the classical/orchestral world, a "standard" size that you're expected to play, to begin with? I cannot think of any other instrument where that is the case. Woodwinds come in an infinite variation of sizes and bore profile. Trumpets, horns and tubas all come in a variety of size depending on brand and model and "orchestra players must play on this one specific size" is not a really a thing (at least not anywhere close to the trombone's .547). Even some other attempts at categorization like 4/4 vs 5/4 vs 6/4 tubas are a very relative concept – the bore and bell sizes vary a lot. String players all play instruments with quite a bit of variation in size, shape, string gauge, etc.

Just look at the more traditional German trombones. There's 5 general "widths" and 4 of them were considered orchestral sizes. And look closer and you'll see that one maker's bore sizes for each of those 5 "widths" might be completely different from another's. They are concepts of how the instrument should feel and play, and not precise mandated sizes. Sadly those are disappearing and being replaced by the American standard sizes.

Seems to me that primarily Jazz players use all kinds of sizes of horns, to some extent they strive to have their sound and an instrument that best helps them achieve it.

I simply do not understand why orchestral trombones have to come in one bore and bell size, and why everyone strives to have the same sound concept. I find it boring and sad.

[Retrobone]

I wish we could reframe the question into why do we even have these categories. Why is there, especially in the classical/orchestral world, a "standard" size that you're expected to play, to begin with? I cannot think of any other instrument where that is the case. Woodwinds come in an infinite variation of sizes and bore profile. Trumpets, horns and tubas all come in a variety of size depending on brand and model and "orchestra players must play on this one specific size" is not a really a thing (at least not anywhere close to the trombone's .547). Even some other attempts at categorization like 4/4 vs 5/4 vs 6/4 tubas are a very relative concept – the bore and bell sizes vary a lot. String players all play instruments with quite a bit of variation in size, shape, string gauge, etc.

Just look at the more traditional German trombones. There's 5 general "widths" and 4 of them were considered orchestral sizes. And look closer and you'll see that one maker's bore sizes for each of those 5 "widths" might be completely different from another's. They are concepts of how the instrument should feel and play, and not precise mandated sizes. Sadly those are disappearing and being replaced by the American standard sizes.

Seems to me that primarily Jazz players use all kinds of sizes of horns, to some extent they strive to have their sound and an instrument that best helps them achieve it.

I simply do not understand why orchestral trombones have to come in one bore and bell size, and why everyone strives to have the same sound concept. I find it boring and sad.

I couldn't agree more!!!

[MStarke]

You could go one step further and relate it to the question why orchestral playing - in a very simplified way to say it - asks to play things with a very specific pre-defined interpretation and sound and doesn't allow (much) own interpretation typically?

I think if that fact is accepted then it is also logical that there is a relatively standardized selection of equipment.

I know this is a very black and white perspective, but there is not really so much space to deviate in the interpretation.

However to be honest this is NOT the only instrument where it is that way. There are some German orchestras where you can play any french horn as long as it is an Alexander 103 (or maybe a copy).
In British brass bands, instrumentation also seems to be quite standardized across most instruments.
The majority of jazz trombonists play .500 to .509, jazz bass trombonists mostly play fairly standard equipment as well.

I think in the end it is just making it easier to make things work in diverse settings.
You cannot go wrong with bringing your .547 tenor to an orchestral gig, even if another trombone might be the more optimal choice.

[Retrobone]

I am lucky to have some freedom in my instrument choices... since I play in an orchestra which does quite a wide range of repertoire. This week for instance we are accompanying a jazz singer. There is one trombone and its playing in a small venue. I'm playing on my 36, which I used the week before in Beethoven 9 on 2nd trombone. The project before that was Berg Violin Concerto and Bruckner 7. I played that program on a Lätzsch Weite 2 medium bore and the whole section used German trombones together with rotary trumpets. All these decisions are made by the section or myself. Conductors are never consulted. We often scale down from 547 trombones when we feel it's appropriate. In general I find the 547 trombone to be one sided in sound. Not really colourful enough for a,lot of that I want to do sound wise

[bbocaner]

That's assuming that composers would have stuck with serpents, etc, even if modern tubas and trombones had been available to them. I doubt it. Why?

Actually, a lot of them did stick with the older instruments for quite some time after the newer instruments were available. Because it's a completely different sound.

As far as .525 instruments, my position is that if you're using the right leadpipe/receiver and mouthpiece, there isn't a whole lot of difference between .525 and .547.

I like using the .525 for quintet, for pops programs, bolero, and... I just like practicing on the .525.

[Bach5G]

I’ve had a .525 Shires for nearly 20 years, along with a .547. Nice horn but I think a 3B might be a more useful alternative.

[hyperbolica]

I’ve had a .525 Shires for nearly 20 years, along with a .547. Nice horn but I think a 3B might be a more useful alternative.

I bought a Shires 525 a bunch of years ago, and immediately got rid of it. It played so big there was no reason to own it next to an existing 547. Other 525, like the 79h and 36b and even the 88h with 525 slide fill a niche that Shires doesn't seem to be able to touch.

I find the 3b has a more biting sound, and not necessarily in a good way. It blends better with trumpets, but when played by itself, I guess it just sounds like a King, and soime folks like that and some don't. I prefer my Getzen 3508 or even a 48h for a thicker, more solid sound.

[JeffBone44]

My 1940 Conn 78H special that I bought from The Brass Ark last year has been a game changer for me. It is absolutely perfect for the pit work that I do. I was struggling mightily trying to use my large bore for it, and a small bore was out of the question because I need a valve for a lot of that repertoire. Most importantly it gives me the sound that I want for that type of work. It can sound brilliant when I need it too, and for softer playing it has a nice warm sound with color. I also prefer the medium bore for 1st parts in my brass band.

[Aznguyy]

In most of my playing situations, I prefer to use my Getzen medium bore. I do have a 3b size horn, but like many have posted, I prefer the extra "beef" that comes from my medium bore. It just gives me more of the sound I hear in my head and I have no issue making it fit into where I play.
While I say this about the Getzen, I have a harder time using my Yamaha medium bore which has a 8.5inch bell. The Yamaha would just play too big in most situations except for orchestra 1st or chamber groups with single trombone parts. I would occasionally use it in smaller jazz settings but it would take a lot more work steering the horn to play it the way I like to in jazz.

As a question to you all(not trying to turn this into too much of a mouthpiece discussion), do you use the same mouthpiece size in your small/large bore as your medium bore? or do you approach the mouthpiece size differently for your medium bore?

[hyperbolica]

As a question to you all(not trying to turn this into too much of a mouthpiece discussion), do you use the same mouthpiece size in your small/large bore as your medium bore? or do you approach the mouthpiece size differently for your medium bore?

I use Doug Elliott stuff, the same rim on 500, 508, 525 and 547. Cups from C - G, shanks 2,3,4,8. A horn can change personality or flavor with a different leadpipe and /or mouthpieces. Typically I use a 104 E 4 on 525, but could go up or down a size.

[Finetales]

I wish we could reframe the question into why do we even have these categories. Why is there, especially in the classical/orchestral world, a "standard" size that you're expected to play, to begin with? I cannot think of any other instrument where that is the case. Woodwinds come in an infinite variation of sizes and bore profile. Trumpets, horns and tubas all come in a variety of size depending on brand and model and "orchestra players must play on this one specific size" is not a really a thing (at least not anywhere close to the trombone's .547). Even some other attempts at categorization like 4/4 vs 5/4 vs 6/4 tubas are a very relative concept – the bore and bell sizes vary a lot. String players all play instruments with quite a bit of variation in size, shape, string gauge, etc.

I would argue that orchestral trumpets, at least in the United States, are even more standardized than orchestral trombones. Even by the collegiate level you are expected to play a Bach or Yamaha Xeno C (.462" bore, Bach 229 or 239 taper). Nothing else is really acceptable. That's not just ".547", that's "you must play a Bach .547 or an Edwards Bach-style .547."

Horns too are pretty well standardized. There are some differences in bell throats between medium-throat Geyer wraps and large-throat 8Ds, but the 8D is pretty much gone in the orchestra apart from in Cleveland, and small-throat horns like the Conn 6D even moreso. In the UK they still use 8Ds and similar large Kruspes as far as I know. And if bore size is the data point we're interested in, every modern double horn is .468" or an inconsequentially-tiny bit larger. Plus, as already mentioned, in parts of Europe and Asia, you may ONLY play on an Alexander 103. You can play the audition on another horn, but if you win you must go buy a 103.

Tubas are definitely a wild west compared to the rest of the brass. The typical instrument is very different from country to country (6/4 York-style Cs in the US, big compensating Ebs in the UK (though they are bringing out the 6/4 Cs for the biggest works now), rotary Bbs in Germany, etc. But, within each region it's pretty consistent. I think that's a simple result of being the only one on your instrument in the orchestra, and tubas having such a massive range of bores, bell sizes, and wraps.

Just look at the more traditional German trombones. There's 5 general "widths" and 4 of them were considered orchestral sizes. And look closer and you'll see that one maker's bore sizes for each of those 5 "widths" might be completely different from another's. They are concepts of how the instrument should feel and play, and not precise mandated sizes.

Yes, but as you say in the next sentence, they are being replaced by American .547s. The German players aren't being asked to play them, they are doing it on their own accord. Seems to me they recognize that the modern .547 is the best tool for the job. But, they don't sound like American players when they play them. The German sound has as at least as much to do with the player's approach as it does the horn.

I simply do not understand why orchestral trombones have to come in one bore and bell size, and why everyone strives to have the same sound concept. I find it boring and sad.

Same sound concept...well, that's what happens when legions of players want to sound like one thing - first it was the roaring Chicago Symphony brass at its peak, and then it was (and still is) Joe Alessi. It's not just because they're all playing .547s.

My personal orchestral sound concept is a mix of Olaf Ott and Glenn Dodson...there are many more ways to play a .547 than that is commonly done! At the end of the day, although .547 is by far my least favorite size of trombone to play or listen to, if everyone else is bringing a dark .547 to the gig there's not much else you can bring unless you're on principal. I would LOVE to play in a section that doesn't just downsize for alto works, but is downsized by default and only brings out the big guns for Mahler. But unless I make my own orchestra, that will remain a fantasy.

[hornbuilder]

Big horns aren't actually appropriate for Mahler, either, if you consider what was being played when the music was written..

[mjrochatbn74]

Disclaimer: I don't play orchestral rep and my background is mainly big band, rock, blues, and a little of everything else including brass ensemble and NOLA brass band. However, I am astounded regarding numerous threads and conversations on horns sizes. I would say that most historical big bands typically got it right for gear with small bore, small-medium bore, medium bore and bass trombone in a section for balance in this rep. However, the classical composers would flip over in their graves if they saw how their music was being played especially by the brass. We have essentially bass trombones blaring playing part one and everyone just agrees that this is how it is. Who says? Everyone needs a 0.547. Please stop. No wonder why trombones get a bad rap for being loud and why composers/conductors cringe around us. Really why are we all so obnoxious as trombonists and then confused when non-tombonists call us out on it. Medium bore is completely appropriate in many places including 2nd or 3rd in big and and likely 1st in most orchestras. Seriously, many of you should get off your high horses. I love my 36B and Mercedes when appropriate. I also use my 2b, constellation and bolero when appropriate as well and no I am not buying a 0.547 horn because people say I should. Thanks.

[Finetales]

Disclaimer: I don't play orchestral rep and my background is mainly big band, rock, blues, and a little of everything else including brass ensemble and NOLA brass band.

The orchestra is where .547s are called for. Very few people are using .547s in all the things you listed.

However, the classical composers would flip over in their graves if they saw how their music was being played especially by the brass.

Every single instrument in the orchestra is different now than it was then. The strings are using steel instead of gut, the woodwinds are using louder, modernized instruments, and of course all the brass are different. The modern trombones we use fit well with the rest of the brass, which fit well with the rest of the orchestra. The .547 trombone wasn't created in a vacuum.

Also, assuming composers would hate how orchestras sound playing their music today is a baseless assumption. Composers wrote for what they did because that's what they had available. I would bet that many famous composers would love the sound and capability of today's instruments.

We have essentially bass trombones blaring playing part one and everyone just agrees that this is how it is. Who says?

Contractors, conductors, professors, band directors, trombonists...

Everyone needs a 0.547. Please stop.

If you want to be hired to play trombone in the orchestra, you need a .547 (or at least, a .525 that sounds AND looks like one...conductors often hear with their eyes). That is a fact, not an opinion. We're not just making it up because we love .547s so much. It's my least favorite size of trombone, I would LOVE to not have to use it. But I don't get to make that choice.

No wonder why trombones get a bad rap for being loud and why composers/conductors cringe around us.

This would not change if we were on smaller equipment. Every trombone is loud. A 2B can decimate an orchestra.

Really why are we all so obnoxious as trombonists and then confused when non-tombonists call us out on it.

Non-trombonists call us out on playing .547s in the orchestra? When?

Seriously, many of you should get off your high horses.

If "doing what is expected of me as a professional trombonist" is a high horse, then I guess I'm ridin' high.

no I am not buying a 0.547 horn because people say I should. Thanks.

You said that you don't play orchestral rep, so needing a .547 horn doesn't apply to you. Why are you so angry about this?

[Bach5G]

Off to play big band 3rd bone with my .525. Tonight orch on my .547.

Right tool for the job.

[JohnL]

If you want to be hired to play trombone in the orchestra, you need a .547 (or at least, a .525 that sounds AND looks like one...conductors often hear with their eyes). That is a fact, not an opinion. We're not just making it up because we love .547s so much. It's my least favorite size of trombone, I would LOVE to not have to use it. But I don't get to make that choice.

Hired? For the most part, one needs a .547" just to be taken seriously as a trombone student with orchestral aspirations.

[imsevimse]

You can be too loud on any size. I wonder why we want our music to be so loud today? Maybe we changed as we live in a more noisy world? I'm not thinking not only on classical music now but more of what could be referenced to as commercial music. The mics and the bad soundengineers are the problem not the size of our horns. That's what my experience says and its mostly from big bands. As some has said the .547 is the standard orchestra horn and from there people scale down if music requires. I like all sizes but play least on my .547. I do not have those gigs where I need a .547.

/Tom

[Posaunus]

Disclaimer: I don't play orchestral rep and my background is mainly big band, rock, blues, and a little of everything else including brass ensemble and NOLA brass band. However, I am astounded regarding numerous threads and conversations on horns sizes. I would say that most historical big bands typically got it right for gear with small bore, small-medium bore, medium bore and bass trombone in a section for balance in this rep. However, the classical composers would flip over in their graves if they saw how their music was being played especially by the brass. We have essentially bass trombones blaring playing part one and everyone just agrees that this is how it is. Who says? Everyone needs a 0.547. Please stop. No wonder why trombones get a bad rap for being loud and why composers/conductors cringe around us. Really why are we all so obnoxious as trombonists and then confused when non-tombonists call us out on it. Medium bore is completely appropriate in many places including 2nd or 3rd in big and and likely 1st in most orchestras. Seriously, many of you should get off your high horses. I love my 36B and Mercedes when appropriate. I also use my 2b, constellation and bolero when appropriate as well and no I am not buying a 0.547 horn because people say I should. Thanks.

Perahps you should take a deep breath!

[harrisonreed]

Disclaimer: I don't play orchestral rep and my background is mainly big band, rock, blues, and a little of everything else including brass ensemble and NOLA brass band. However, I am astounded regarding numerous threads and conversations on horns sizes. I would say that most historical big bands typically got it right for gear with small bore, small-medium bore, medium bore and bass trombone in a section for balance in this rep. However, the classical composers would flip over in their graves if they saw how their music was being played especially by the brass. We have essentially bass trombones blaring playing part one and everyone just agrees that this is how it is. Who says? Everyone needs a 0.547. Please stop. No wonder why trombones get a bad rap for being loud and why composers/conductors cringe around us. Really why are we all so obnoxious as trombonists and then confused when non-tombonists call us out on it. Medium bore is completely appropriate in many places including 2nd or 3rd in big and and likely 1st in most orchestras. Seriously, many of you should get off your high horses. I love my 36B and Mercedes when appropriate. I also use my 2b, constellation and bolero when appropriate as well and no I am not buying a 0.547 horn because people say I should. Thanks.

LoL. You do you. It's not like you're trying out for orchestras, so no harm done.

[Thrawn22]

Disclaimer: I don't play orchestral rep and my background is mainly big band, rock, blues, and a little of everything else including brass ensemble and NOLA brass band. However, I am astounded regarding numerous threads and conversations on horns sizes. I would say that most historical big bands typically got it right for gear with small bore, small-medium bore, medium bore and bass trombone in a section for balance in this rep. However, the classical composers would flip over in their graves if they saw how their music was being played especially by the brass. We have essentially bass trombones blaring playing part one and everyone just agrees that this is how it is. Who says? Everyone needs a 0.547. Please stop. No wonder why trombones get a bad rap for being loud and why composers/conductors cringe around us. Really why are we all so obnoxious as trombonists and then confused when non-tombonists call us out on it. Medium bore is completely appropriate in many places including 2nd or 3rd in big and and likely 1st in most orchestras. Seriously, many of you should get off your high horses. I love my 36B and Mercedes when appropriate. I also use my 2b, constellation and bolero when appropriate as well and no I am not buying a 0.547 horn because people say I should. Thanks.

You should buy a big horn. Something around the $5k price range should make you be more appropriate in a conductors eyes.

[Bach5G]

What does $5k buy anymore?

[Finetales]

Hired? For the most part, one needs a .547" just to be taken seriously as a trombone student with orchestral aspirations.

Oh definitely. If don't have a .547 by the time you get to college, your professor will be encouraging you to buy one as soon as you can or at least having you rent one from the school.

[Bach5G]

Earlier this year, I attended a brass workshop at the nearest uni. Peter Steiner played so there were a lot of trombon players there. But not a straight horn in sight.

And yet I can’t find an orchestral sub.

[Briande]

Off to play big band 3rd bone with my .525. Tonight orch on my .547.

Right tool for the job.

[LeTromboniste]

Absolutely agree that the current necessity of using a large bore instrument if you want to become an orchestral player is just a non-debatable fact. I played a 42 (an instrument I did love), and if I was teaching modern trombone I would have to recommend to students that they play large bores too. I'm not disputing that it is a fact, but questioning why it has become – and maybe more importantly, why it should remain – a fact, and whether this dogma and high degree of standardization really is desirable. I think it's healthy for us to reflect on those issues, even if at the end of the day, we must do what we must.

The premise that the .547 is the "right tool for the job" is just silly to me. It is indeed the right tool, but only becsause everybody else plays that, so you can't choose to play something else, combined with certain macho attitudes and often utterly unmusical esthetics without which it would be the "best tool" for almost no repertoire to begin with. I really don't see how it has much at all to do with what best serves the music. If it truly did, we wouldn't be constantly discussing "scaling down" for half the repertoire or switching to German-style instruments for this and that, or using baroque trombones in otherwise modern orchestras when playing Mozart like is becoming increasingly common in central Europe. Those are also not things you commonly see with most of the other orchestral instruments.

I would be very curious to see what the trombone world would look like if everyone just played instruments that best fit their playing and their own sound concept and musical ideas (and if people were actually encouraged to have individuality and musical ideas). Maybe that would mean that not every player is as easily employable everywhere, because you might not fit in in certain places. But a how much more diverse and interesting might the scene be.

[harrisonreed]

Maximilien, aren't the vast majority of sacbuts modeled after a very very small number of examples though? There is a field that probably had historic precedent for a ton of variability in design, but everyone plays on only a handful of designs.

I could be totally wrong, but

We are in a historic period of time where orchestras use .547s, and HIP people use one of a very small slice of replicas available. No biggie.

[Bach5G]

Why do ordinary folk drive giant pickup trucks?

[Posaunus]

Why do ordinary folk drive giant pickup trucks?

Why does anybody (probably not "ordinary") drive a Tesla Cybertruck? Saw one yesterday.

[LeTromboniste]

Maximilien, aren't the vast majority of sacbuts modeled after a very very small number of examples though? There is a field that probably had historic precedent for a ton of variability in design, but everyone plays on only a handful of designs.

I could be totally wrong, but

We are in a historic period of time where orchestras use .547s, and HIP people use one of a very small slice of replicas available. No biggie.

Well, yes, but I don't think anybody in my field is happy about that. We'd all much rather there were more makers, offering more models, based on more originals (and that there were more surviving originals available to be copied to start with).

But there's more variability in key dimensions between these 5 or 6 designs of tenor sackbuts (for one thing, none of them have the same bore or bell size as the others) than between the hundreds of designs of large bore tenors, which is telling. And whether the horn one happens to prefer to play is bigger or smaller has no bearing on who plays first or second or third, or asked at all for that matter. What matters is the playing as a whole.

[hyperbolica]

The only time I was actually told what size trombone to play was when I went to college. I took an 88h, which in my view is the most colorful and lightest sounding of the 547s. Even as an adult, I once played with a college chamber group playing a high 1st part on a 48h, and endured some good natured ribbing. 48h is dark for a 500 bore, but the high part was clean and clear. On a larger horn it would have been mushier.

I've been showing up to play 1st in local orchestra on 79h. But i have an audition for 2nd at a step-up orchestra, and I'm probably going to take my 88h, just to be safe.

John Swallow was one of my teachers, and he played a lot of 525, although he was more known as chamber music guy than orchestral.

Also, don't forget that a lot of trombonists, even pros, don't necessarily play more than 1 horn most of the time. This forum is a bubble of the obsessed. I play with a couple of guys who only own a 547.

I play also with some guys who insist on playing 547 for big band lead. That makes a lot of mushy volume on top with no real articulation or definition. We don't sound like a section of trombones in a big band.

The overuse of 547 has had 2 sources, as I see it. First Emory Remington standardizing Eastman on the 88h, and as a part of the huge orchestral volume arms race. I do think aside from academics and large orchestras we're starting to get away from the 547 mandate.

In the real world, most audiences couldn't tell the difference between a trombone, a baritone and a French horn. As much as some people tend to play 547 everywhere, I contend that you could equally get away with using a smaller bore bone everywhere, especially if you're careful about controlling the edge and articulation.

[chouston3]

I don't play orchestra anymore. At this point, I use the smallest horn I can get away with playing. .508 has worked for everything for me. However, in my large community band, I would enjoy a little extra beef that a .525 bore horn provides.

For church solos and small ensembles, I like to use my Olds Super which is even smaller.

Hearing horns by themselves, I would gravitate towards the bigger sound. But playing in the ensemble is different. A smaller horn works just fine and it might even be more colorful.

[Digidog]

I, for one, do not like the obsession there is about playing 0.547 bores for all parts in orchestras. Too often it doesn't sound good to my ears.

The other week, I listened to "Bolero" being played by one of the major Swedish symphonies, and the trombone solo was all too mellow and polite for my liking, however impeccably played on a Conn.

I would have preferred the lead trombonist to play a smaller horn, and get a light, more edge-y bite to the high part, and a little more focused sound at the end.

I also listened to a performance of David played on a Bach 42, and I'd say that had the player had a smaller horn, the contrasts between the soft and the more dramatic parts would have been better chiseled out and defined.

In my opinion large bore trombones have their use and their place, but they are too often overused and misused, where a medium bore or even a small bore to my ears would have been both more appropriate, as well as sounding better and more expressive.

In my opinion, Håkan Björkman did make a wise descision to play principal on a smaller horn. He gets a wider range of expression, dynamics and motion on his smaller horn, than many do on large bores however great players they are in their own right.

In the end, I think I feel a lack of diversity and sense some kind of conformism in orchestral trombone playing, but all this is my opinions. I am all for a better spread of the horns used; on all occasions and in all ensembles - from brass band, via big band to the major symphonic orchestra. My theoretic ideal section would be small, medium, large, bass in an orchestra and small, medium small, medium, (a not too big) bass in a big band.

[Pezza]

I've been playing my King 5B bass in a big band. It works in the section, where my Bach 50 wouldn't!
I have large bore tenors, they haven't been played for years. My Bach 36 always gives enough that I don't feel the need for the large bores.

[MrHCinDE]

I played a gig in a small group yesterday (7-piece Bierkeller stuff) and was thinking about this thread and whether to take a medium bore for the 1st trombone part. In the end I took an Olds opera because it‘s new to me and I wanted to try it in a live setting. This has muddied the waters a bit for me. Two observations:

1) Not all large bore horns are created equally. That olds can certainly give more than enough clarity for a 1st part with a medium depth mouthpiece, despite it being larger than .547“. I wouldn’t hesistate to use it again in the same group. It has the added bonus of some fruity pedals, e.g dropping the bass section in a march down an octave. Anything from my other .508“ and .525“ collection would also have been fine. I‘ve tried other large bores in that group before and they didn‘t really work out.

2) The 2nd trombonist in that group is also a conductor of various other groups. She pretty much plays her large bore setup for everything. She doesn‘t seem to have more than a passing interest in equipment and I could not imagine that she would ever ask anyone to bring a particular type of trombone. I think she‘s more reflective of the wider trombone population than the member of this forum are.