Most efficient way to learn tenor and alto clef?

[ttf_Quixotik]

Hey everyone! I'm pretty happy now as I just found out I was accepted into the MYS top symphony orchestra. Anyway, I need to learn two clefs by the middle of July for the MMEA orchestra, and by September for MYS. It also says that we will be doing sight reading at MYS rehearsals, so it would be pretty awkward if I had no idea what I am doing.

I'm also auditioning for NYO in November, and I want to play something from Joe Alessi's Carmen Fantasy as I have the sheet music now. I want to start preparing now, but the music is in all tenor and alto clef.

I'm tired of beating around the bush, so I've been looking at some ways to learn to think in those clefs and not just transpose. There is books for tenor and alto clef by Fink, which I think are my best options as of right now. But I'm also looking for other ways. My teacher recommended writing some of my sheet music in different clefs and then playing them, but I'd like to hear from you guys as well.

By the way, thanks to everyone who helped me on my audition day. I felt a lot better after hearing all of your input; I was a lot less nervous.

[ttf_timothy42b]

I don't know the best way.

It might be different for everybody.

I did it initially by playing the trumpet book on a polka gig with paying drunk customers.  Pressure helps.

Now what I do is take a piece of standard treble clef music, could be anything but it should be a recognizable tune.  Add two flats and read it as tenor.  Add two sharps and read it as alto.  Add one flat and read it as mezzo-soprano (horn in F).  If your chops are up to it, read it as concert pitch treble, as written.  

Turn the page and do it again.  

[ttf_elmsandr]

Play whatever you play and know, play it as written--play it in tenor clef--play it in alto clef. (You have to change the keys a bit, but if you hear it in one key, you should be able to hear it up a 5th or 7th).

There is a fun clef studies by Blazevich, it changes clefs every few bars.  This book is evil, but great to learn.  Is this still in print?

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_Bimmerman]

Brad Edwards has a good book on the subject, if you're looking for a method book.

I personally have had good success with reading pieces I already know (i.e., Rochut) and mentally reading them as if they're in Tenor clef-- you need to adjust the accidentals to do this, and you need a solid high range. Alternatively, read Bb treble clef as Tenor and adjust the key signature. This works if you already know a few C treble charts.

Another method I used was to just get my hands on as much tenor clef as possible and immerse myself in playing it. Initially I had to write the note names on the pages but after a couple days I could sight read as well as I ever could in tenor. Alto takes me a moment still due to rarity, but same method works there.

What I don't recommend is associating a note symbol with a slide position unless you never use alternate positions.

[ttf_Matt K]

I also learned tenor/alto by transposing Rochut etudes.  Problem with the method books is they tend to introduce stuff one note at a time.  If you're in a practice room, just go as slow as you need to and you'll be surprised at how quickly you start to learn which line has which note.

[ttf_Quixotik]

Quote from: elmsandr on Jun 12, 2017, 12:20PM
There is a fun clef studies by Blazevich, it changes clefs every few bars.  This book is evil, but great to learn.  Is this still in print?


Sounds intimidating, is this it https://www.amazon.com/Clef-Studies-Trombone-Vladislav-Blazhevich/dp/0757982115

Paperback seems to be sold for $100 by a private seller, so I'm assuming it is probably no longer printed. I managed to find an english pdf online which I might end up using. Thanks!

Quote from: Bimmerman on Jun 12, 2017, 12:28PMWhat I don't recommend is associating a note symbol with a slide position unless you never use alternate positions.

I actually made flash cards so I could learn all the note names quickly. It worked, but now I cannot associate the notes with the slide positions quick enough! I guess that will just take more practice.

[ttf_Noahharry]

Another way would be to find some music in tenor and alto, which it seems like you already have. And just battle through it learning the clef while learning the piece.  For most students something like Morceau is their introduction to tenor clef.  Find orchestral excerpts that you want to learn or need to learn and they are almost always in one of the 2 clefs.  Something standard like Tuba Mirum for tenor clef and Brahms 1st for alto are great beginner excerpts that are in tenor and alto.  Plus they are 2 of the most standard excerpts you will ever learn.

[ttf_timothy42b]

The Blazhevich "Trombone School" is public domain on IMSLP.  I'm not sure if that is the same one or not.

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

A pencil is your friend. So is a really good eraser.

Get some manuscript paper (there are several websites where you can download pdfs), sit down with a pencil, and write out your favorite Rochut/Bordogni in tenor clef. Then play it from your handwritten copy.

Repeat with your 2nd favorite Rochut/Bordogni in alto clef.

Keep doing that for a while. This will make neural connections in your brain. You have to write it out by hand to get the benefit; taking a shortcut by entering it into a notation program and then changing the clef won't help you nearly as much.

Another good thing to do is write a transcription. If you sing in a school or church chorus, pick a piece you've really enjoyed and transcribe it for trombones. Choose a key that will work, and then write out the score by hand, putting the top part in alto clef, the 2nd and maybe third parts in tenor clef, and the bass part in bass clef. Then write out parts by hand. Not only will you learn the clefs well this way and make the connections in your brain you need, you will also improve your music handwriting (very nearly a lost art).


Then take the Carmen Fantasy you want to perform and make a photocopy to practice from. Start practicing, slowly and carefully, and write in the names of notes you need. As you don't need them anymore, erase them.

DO NOT write in positions! To successfully make this transition to the next stage of your trombone playing life, you need to make the change in your thinking so that you are identifying notes you see by name and how they sound, not by the position.

There's no way to do this without spending time.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Something that has worked for me is to read everything via intervals relative to middle C. This helps you read every clef. Eventually you can read tenor without the trick, but you may have to still use it for alto or treble, or something weird like mezzo-soprano (for reading F horn parts).

Clef reading is really essential to being a trombone player. I know a couple of pros who can't read tenor, and it blows my mind.

[ttf_BGuttman]

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 12, 2017, 01:01PMThe Blazhevich "Trombone School" is public domain on IMSLP.  I'm not sure if that is the same one or not.

It's the Clef Studies, but is called "School for Trombone".  I had to learn from it, but I recommend anything else before you get to the Clef Studies -- Nice music but not for a beginner.

Another one that has exercises in all clefs is the Mantia "Trombone Virtuoso".  I downloaded it from IMSLP but I think it got taken down.

IMSLP can be a real friend since you can download LOTS of trombone parts in various clefs.  Look at Dvorak for some heavy alto clef work.  Beethoven for HIGH alto clef work.  Rimsky-Korsakov for tenor clef work.  Check out Trombone 2 on "Russian Easter Overture".

<Edit>Just checked.  Trombone Virtuoso is still on IMSLP.  Nice thing about the Mantia exercises is that they all stay in the same clef.</Edit>

[ttf_Radar]

I've used the Fink book and it worked. One other thing I do to remember it (since I don't see tenor and alto clef that often) is a website that lets you practice identifying the notes like a game.  I do it when I'm mindlessly watching TV.  http://notationtraining.com/tenor-clef-practice

[ttf_Ellrod]

Do it (tenor, alto) every day, even if it's only 10 - 15 minutes.

[ttf_trombonemetal]

Three lesser known books for this that are really terrific (and hard) are:

David Uber's 23 Virtuoso Clef Studies

David Uber's Symphonic Studies in Alto Clef

And

Kauko Kahila's Advanced Clef Studies

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

No magical solution. Sight reading every day!

[ttf_norbie2009]

Do as Gabe says. It's time consuming, but it'll work.

[ttf_savio]

Its like learning a language. Like Gabe told, a pencil is very efficient. A computer is often  not efficient in a learning process because its doing the work we should be doing our self. A computer is useful in collecting data...I speak from experience, there is no shortcut except one; the will, desire or dream to learn. And time to try or practice it.

Leif

[ttf_anonymous]

You can also use music theory sites like teoria.com to get used to reading clefs. The Blazhevich studies will also challenge other aspects of your trombone playing, so I would highly recommend doing some of them also.

[ttf_kbiggs]

Use Fink. It works. Or use Brad Edwards' or Ralph Sauer's books. I've heard they also work. Use Blazevich once you're done with Fink, Edwards, Sauer, or others.

Do what Gabe suggests. Making new cross neuronal connections (learning) is time consuming but worth it. By writing it out, you're exercising different portions of your memory and cognitive systems compared to when you play. These different applications of memory and cognitiion--playing and writing--then reinforce each other, making the connections more firm. Slow practice makes fast progress.

If you must write yourself a cue to remember the note, don't write the slide position. Write the name of the note. For example, in tenor clef  would be "F," not "1st" or "b3." It's important because you want to know the name of the note and how that note fits in with the rest of the music, not just "where does the slide go?"

Good luck, and be patient.

[ttf_marccromme]

Quote from: norbie2009 on Jun 13, 2017, 10:19AMDo as Gabe says. It's time consuming, but it'll work.
+1 - Gabe's description nails it.

I wrote the same simple tunes in bass clef, in treble clef in C, Bb, Eb and F (like french horn), in tenor and alto, such that they would sound equal, and then played them in any order. The only difference was the optical look-and-feel, the music stays exactly the same.

Doing that with a new tune every day for a month, and you will be proficient. I do always think in concert pitch, even when reading Eb treble clef on a Eb tuba. I _never_ think fingering or position when reading sheet music. Only concert pitch.

[ttf_Max Croot]

In Australia our students at the Conservatorium do exams. As a private teacher I can put students through the exam Syllabus. We can start students at any age. In our exams series, Students start at level one. Level 2 5th grade tenor clef is introduced, 6th grade alto clef. When my students go to continue their studies they can already read all clefs including concert treble clef and brass band treble clef. Do as Gabe says. It will take patience, but make sure do it the correct way. Try to play your bass clef exercises in tenor and alto. I wish you every success. Cheers Max

[ttf_Max Croot]

In Australia our students at the Conservatorium do exams. As a private teacher I can put students through the exam Syllabus. We can start students at any age. In our exams series, Students start at level one. Level 2 5th grade tenor clef is introduced, 6th grade alto clef. When my students go to continue their studies they can already read all clefs including concert treble clef and brass band treble clef. Do as Gabe says. It will take patience, but make sure do it the correct way. Try to play your bass clef exercises in tenor and alto. I wish you every success. Cheers Max