King trombone Quality

[Nobbi]

To all King fans and experts,

one question circling my mind for some time is: is there an era of King instruments of exceptional quality/sound?
As everyone knows was King sold in 1966, the production moved to a new place and was renamed. Means, the used type of brass/brass supplier could have changed and therefore maybe quality, maybe sound changed as well.
I actually play a 1976 5b .... and a 1961 2b is on it's way to me. Probably not comparable but I would like to know if I should go for instruments of a certain King era in the future when deciding to get a new/another one (a Duo Gravis will definitely share my house with me in the future)?

Nobbi

[harrisonreed]

I was able to play two 3BFs made in 2020 side by side and would rate them as exceptional. They needed a lot of attention and cleaning up out of the box, particularly in the F slide tubes and rotor. I would want to play those as much as my late 60s 3BF silver sonic, and might even choose them over the SS in some settings.

[Burgerbob]

Honestly, though there are some great H.N. White era trombones, King has been pretty consistently great the whole run. At least talking about 2B and 3B. Are they all the same? No, but they all do things well.

I'd feel good about picking up basically any 2B or 3B that's not beat all to hell.

[JohnL]

King's move was maybe 20 miles, so a lot of the workforce stayed with the company. That's in contrast to Conn (Elkhart, IN to Abilene, TX) and Bach (Mt. Vernon, NY to Elkhart, IN); those were major upheavals.

Yes, there are some eras of King trombones that have more of an "aura" than others (particularly with collectors), but I don't think there's a King equivalent to the Conn's Abilene period.

[Posaunus]

From my (admittedly) limited experience (my earliest is a 1958 King 2B, I've tried and owned several others over the years, many bandmates play them, and a friend has two quite recently manufactured samples), they're all good. King trombones (and the Benges made in the same factory) have been consistently very well made, with no manufacturing flaws attributable to careless assembly or bad design. I'm a fan.

[Kingfan]

King's move was maybe 20 miles, so a lot of the workforce stayed with the company. That's in contrast to Conn (Elkhart, IN to Abilene, TX) and Bach (Mt. Vernon, NY to Elkhart, IN); those were major upheavals.

The Eastlake factory is 2 miles from where I grew up, I know the area well. The move was just a hair over 14 miles. The old factory was downtown Cleveland and the new place was right off a freeway so access was better for anybody not using public transportation.

[EOlson9]

I've had a number of Kings over the years and all have been amazing. My first was a 2b Liberty from the mid 50's and was such a great horn. Honestly, wish I hadn't sold it. Next up was a brand new 2b+ I bought in 06 and sold a few years ago, also very sollid. Now I have a 3bg brand new from 2018 and a 3b+/F from 1981. Both are stellar.

[spencercarran]

King's move was maybe 20 miles, so a lot of the workforce stayed with the company. That's in contrast to Conn (Elkhart, IN to Abilene, TX) and Bach (Mt. Vernon, NY to Elkhart, IN); those were major upheavals.

The Eastlake factory is 2 miles from where I grew up, I know the area well. The move was just a hair over 14 miles. The old factory was downtown Cleveland and the new place was right off a freeway so access was better for anybody not using public transportation.

Are present-day Kings still made in Eastlake, or did they get moved to Elkhart with the rest of former UMI/Conn?

[ithinknot]

Are present-day Kings still made in Eastlake, or did they get moved to Elkhart with the rest of former UMI/Conn?

Components are, and they still say Eastlake on the bell, and final assembly is with Bach etc in Elkhart.

[Vegastokc]

I wouldn't sell my 1941 "2B" for a kidney.
(even in it's current state of needing a full restoration )

[bigbandbone]

I worked at the Eastlake plant from the late 80's through all of the 90's. I was the leadman in dept 35 and built tubas and sousaphones. Every once in a while I would have to go over to dept 38 and help build tbones when they were backed up. I quit because quality control was in the dumper. Management wouldn't let the builders reject defective parts. We were told to "do the best you can". I used to joke that I was building $10,000 paper weights.
I don't know where tbone production is now. But I wouldn't buy anything built between 1980 and the end of the strike.

[spencercarran]

But I wouldn't buy anything built between 1980 and the end of the strike.

I'm a sucker for labor history, tell me more! I remember reading about the Bach strike in Elkhart shortly after the Conn-Selmer merger. Didn't know there was anything contentious in Eastlake, and as far as I knew those workers were still union as of 2020?

[Finetales]

Some people swear by the '50s horns, others by the ones with the "loopy" engraving on the bell. (Early '70s and I think earlier...both of my 3Bs are a year apart and have the loopy engraving.) Those are the only eras I've ever heard of people having a particular attachment to regarding King trombones. As mentioned already, it seems much more likely that an eBay King will be a good one than, say, a Conn or Bach (from any era). They just work. I've played a couple of brand new 3Bs that I'd happily replace my old 3Bs with if anything happened to them.

[Nobbi]

Thank you for all the replies. Good to know, I don't need to look for certain years of manufacturing ... just can concentrate on the condition of the horn I desire.
Awesome ....

[afugate]

I wouldn't sell my 1941 "2B" for a kidney.
(even in it's current state of needing a full restoration )

Which needs full restoration... the 2B or the kidney?

--Andy in OKC

[Vegastokc]

I wouldn't sell my 1941 "2B" for a kidney.
(even in it's current state of needing a full restoration )

Which needs full restoration... the 2B or the kidney?

--Andy in OKC

Literally: LOL.
Despite a well known fact that many brass players may need new livers and possibly kidneys, I do not fall under that stereotypical situation.

[Andre1966tr]

I have owned a lot of them, Silvertone, 2B, 2B+, Jiggs, 3B, 3Bplus, even some 4B. Lot of Silver Sonics.
The best sounding one was a ´30s Silvertone, same specs as a regular 2B SS. A dream for lead playing and Jazz.
The worst a ´90s 3B which sounded very harsh.
I also had a 3B SS from the seventies. The "high Bb" was a sharp A, very interesting.
My favorite 3B is from the seventies, maybe it is about the balanced thickness of the bell.
Not too heavy not to light..Nice warm sound but still flexible and good to control.
I am very confused by the fact that the weight of the outer slide of my 3Bs differs a lot. From 210 gramm up to 250 gramm.
I believe this is a big part of the overall playing characteristics...

[Driswood]

.......but I don't think there's a King equivalent to the Conn's Abilene period.

I had a 1978 Abilene 88H that was phenomenal! Also a 1976 5H that was a smoker!

Not all Abilene horns were dogs.

[Posaunus]

I’ve had a lovely King 2B since it was purchased new in 1958. Still plays like a dream. And for the past several years, I’ve been playing a terrific 1967 King 3B SilverSonic (on loan; about to be returned to the owner).

Recently I launched a project to provide affordable / free instruments to needy high school trombonists, and I’ve acquired a few “bargain” horns, mostly on eBay. Among these are two “student model” Kings: One was from 1986 (S/N 1318xx), engraved King TEMPO 606 and was pretty beat up. I had to take it to a tech for overhaul (including patching an axial crack on the bell). It's now not perfect, but suitable for high school band. The other seems much newer (S/N 9775xx), engraved only King 606. It came from a music store's rental pool, and (thanks to their apparently-talented in-house technicians) was sent to me in near-perfect condition (lacquer, slide, tuning slide, case all look almost new; the slide is 9.5/10). And it plays beautifully, with a nice singing sound. I would not be ashamed to use this fine trombone in a professional setting. This is a quality trombone. I think I will not pass it on to a student!

[Hobart]

Honestly, I'm not the most well versed, but I have a 3BF bell from 1974 that's been to hell and back, there's huge dents in the tuning slide and a lot of tarnish. It still produces a great tone, and it's a shame I don't have a slide.

I found, from the same disposal heap, a single horn that was rather torn up, in worse shape, and it still functions as a half decent horn.

Finally, I picked one out at a flea market for $10, found in a barn. Slide isn't great, but it produces a quite lovely tone. Its a little small but it's from the Coolidge days.

I'd honestly say King is a very good brand, I have no complaints, and I have not heard many complaints either.

[Arrowhead]

50's to early 60's seem to the best era. The modern day 3B Silversonics still not sound as good as the HN White era.

[rainbow4jd]

Mr. Nobbi:

If it's not an inconvenience, can you describe your playing of your 5b - tone, overall sound, range, styles. I've not played my 1974 King 5b in over 45 years and while it's in immaculate condition - the sounds I make out of it now are horrendous! I'm trying to build a description for a for sale ad and would appreciate some insights from a current player.

Thank you for your consideration and hopeful of your reply.

Steve Vance

[hyperbolica]

I personally don't think that King designs were as good as Conn or Bach. Trigger mechanisms on all Kings I've played haven't been fun to use. Build quality is a different issue than design quality, but they both effect playability. King triggers on 3b, 6b, 1480 are all uncomfortable to use.

[BGuttman]

I personally don't think that King designs were as good as Conn or Bach. Trigger mechanisms on all Kings I've played haven't been fun to use. Build quality is a different issue than design quality, but they both effect playability. King triggers on 3b, 6b, 1480 are all uncomfortable to use.

Uncomfortable for you, maybe, but for me they are great. The main kick against large bore Kings is that they have too light a tone. Never was a problem for me, though. Must be that I traveled in different circles.

[OneTon]

I have one 2B with the three piece weight and one 2B with the larger black weight. I have a slight preference for the later black counter weight. It seems to play pianissimo a bit easier and with fuller color. Every horn has its own personality. Either horn plays big band lead great. My Duo-Gravis from the 1970’s plays great. Arthritis is goofing me up on f attachment actuators but it isn’t the horn’s fault.

[harrisonreed]

I personally don't think that King designs were as good as Conn or Bach. Trigger mechanisms on all Kings I've played haven't been fun to use. Build quality is a different issue than design quality, but they both effect playability. King triggers on 3b, 6b, 1480 are all uncomfortable to use.

Uncomfortable for you, maybe, but for me they are great. The main kick against large bore Kings is that they have too light a tone. Never was a problem for me, though. Must be that I traveled in different circles.

It's interesting, I too find the setup very comfortable, but two of my friends got brand new king 3BFs, with the new larger paddle and string linkage, and again I thought it was comfy, one guy also loved it, and the other guy thought it was the worst ergonomics ever for the valve. So it's a mixed bag I guess.

For what they are supposed to be for, especially the 3B, the design is better (for my money) acoustically and in response than the Conn small bores. Large bore vs 88H? Not so much. But then again there is the Benge...

Bruce, how about those large bore Silversonics though. Those don't play "light"

[BGuttman]

Never had an opportunity to play one. Largest Sonic I ever played was an Anniversary 3B+F (2125F). Would have loved a 4B Sonic, though.

[Pezza]

My 5B is my main bass. I got it as a light alternative after an accident (lip & chest injuries). Now I get more out of it than a Bach 50! I now use a 1.5G mouthpiece.
I borrowed a single trigger yamaha, but it wouldn't do what I wanted it to, where the 5B does. I've used it in brass bands, concert bands, stage bands, small groups & orchestras.
For me it doesn't work as a tenor. Dont know why, just doesn't sit right.

[hyperbolica]

The 3bf trigger is ok, but the design isn't the one I would choose if I were spec'ing out a new ground-up horn. The Duo Gravis (6b) trigger arrangement is legendary and awful. I have double jointed thumbs, and still can't make it work. The 1961 1480 I got recently is actually painful to use the trigger. The horn is front heavy and pulling the trigger hurts the muscle on the inside of my thumb because it's also up against the main bell brace.

The sound of these three instruments is why I now own or have in the past owned these models. I'm not actually a big fan of the 3b sound, but it's the sound that fits in my quintet right now. The 6b has a great sound and feel, and of course the 1480 on and under the staff has a lot of authority in the sound from low Bb to D under the staff. If there were equivalent Benges made, I would have preferred those, just for the design differences. I've never had any build quality problems from King or Benge, but I haven't owned a lot of them.

[KingThings]

The 3bf trigger is ok, but the design isn't the one I would choose if I were spec'ing out a new ground-up horn. The Duo Gravis (6b) trigger arrangement is legendary and awful. I have double jointed thumbs, and still can't make it work. The 1961 1480 I got recently is actually painful to use the trigger. The horn is front heavy and pulling the trigger hurts the muscle on the inside of my thumb because it's also up against the main bell brace.

The sound of these three instruments is why I now own or have in the past owned these models. I'm not actually a big fan of the 3b sound, but it's the sound that fits in my quintet right now. The 6b has a great sound and feel, and of course the 1480 on and under the staff has a lot of authority in the sound from low Bb to D under the staff. If there were equivalent Benges made, I would have preferred those, just for the design differences. I've never had any build quality problems from King or Benge, but I haven't owned a lot of them.

I use a counterweight on my 1964 1480 and that has made a huge difference. Before it was front heavy. Now I have no issues with the trigger, and I love the sound of the King Symphony.....with the stock King 29 mouthpiece I use it for tenor and bass in orchestras.....works for me.