Embouchure Change questions?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:03 pm

Hello all, I recently went through an embouchure change, and I wanted some insight for those of you that have had this experience. What do you recommend? My low range is oddly great, however anything above Bb3, I have a problem with(it just sounds bad), and I cannot play above an F4 as of right now. If you guys can recommend me any methods, books, tips, that would be greatly appreciated.

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:34 pm

Why change your embouchure in the first place? What issues were you having?

I don't really believe in changing embouchure. You have a message you want to send out of the horn, you take a breath and what results is the sound. How your embouchure works is only a byproduct of that message and that breath.

I have personally encountered changing the message I was sending and improving my breathing which helped my sound, which changed my embouchure.

Controlling the end product will control the subsystems, do not control the meat with the hope to control the sound.

Perhaps if you were only playing with one lip in the mouthpiece or something like that I could see a change being warranted.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:37 pm

I see that in the past two years you have posted a bunch of questions, mostly about tonguing and breathing. I assume you have been having various typical and maybe not typical problems in your development as a player. Your current teacher must have suggested some sort of change.

Without knowing anything about your "previous" embouchure or your "new" embouchure, it's impossible to make valid recommendations. I specialize in fixing embouchure problems and have helped hundreds of players, usually relatively small adjustments but sometimes a major change.

ttf_Rtrombone65 · Post by **ttf_Rtrombone65** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm

I was advised to change because I had a pivot problem , and I know that if I continued it would cause problems in my neck area. I also used to move ALOT when doing lip slurs and interval jumps , so that was another reason to change. Based on my new emcbouchure, my single tongue and double tongue speeds are a lot faster in the lower register , and I do not move a lot when I do my lip slurs.

ttf_SethMatrix · Post by **ttf_SethMatrix** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:06 pm

Quote from: Rtrombone65 on Jun 10, 2017, 02:44PMI was advised to change because I had a pivot problem , and I know that if I continued it would cause problems in my neck area. I also used to move ALOT when doing lip slurs and interval jumps , so that was another reason to change. Based on my new emcbouchure, my single tongue and double tongue speeds are a lot faster in the lower register , and I do not move a lot when I do my lip slurs.

Could you describe this pivot problem? Were you changing embouchure between ranges or?

How much you move when doing lip slurs or intervals doesn't matter in my opinion. The sound matters. Focus on the sound and the lips will do what they have to to get that sound.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:31 pm

Aiming for sound without regard for mechanics gets a lot of people in trouble. You can get a great sound on an embouchure that has no potential for overall range.

ttf_Rtrombone65 · Post by **ttf_Rtrombone65** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:42 pm

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jun 10, 2017, 03:06PMCould you describe this pivot problem? Were you changing embouchure between ranges or?

How much you move when doing lip slurs or intervals doesn't matter in my opinion. The sound matters. Focus on the sound and the lips will do what they have to to get that sound.

I played with my head tilted down, I didn't really have a "set" embouchure for the whole range of the instrument. Ex., if I played a Bb2 and a Bb3, both notes would be "set" differently. I couldn't really play going into the pedal register, and if I would gliss starting from a pedal Bb, I would stop at Ab. With this new change, I can comfortably gliss through that partial, including pedal F. I also used to play with a lot of lower lip. My highest notes at the time were Eb5-F5(on good days).

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Quote from: Rtrombone65 on Jun 10, 2017, 03:42PMMy highest notes at the time were Eb5-F5(on good days).

Sorry, but what's 'F5'? Is it f' or f'' ?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:02 pm

Quote from: Rtrombone65 on Jun 10, 2017, 03:42PMI played with my head tilted down, I didn't really have a "set" embouchure for the whole range of the instrument. Ex., if I played a Bb2 and a Bb3, both notes would be "set" differently. I couldn't really play going into the pedal register, and if I would gliss starting from a pedal Bb, I would stop at Ab. With this new change, I can comfortably gliss through that partial, including pedal F. I also used to play with a lot of lower lip. My highest notes at the time were Eb5-F5(on good days).

I understand, and many teachers would have anybody with that embouchure make a radical change. But that's largely because they don't understand how it could be successful. Some extremely prominent and successful players play that way - Blair Bollinger and Dick Nash are the most well known. Sometimes that particular change is very successful, other times it creates a lifetime of frustration when the low placement really just needed some tweaking.

If your change ended up with a lot of top lip (instead of a lot of bottom lip) it is much more likely to be successful than if it ended up close to 50/50. That's a very general statement; there's more to it than that but it's not necessary to get into functional details here.

ttf_growlerbox · Post by **ttf_growlerbox** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:13 pm

Quote from: oslide on Jun 10, 2017, 04:50PMSorry, but what's 'F5'? Is it f' or f'' ?

F5 is F at the top of the treble clef (

).

ttf_FlamingRain · Post by **ttf_FlamingRain** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:15 pm

Quote from: oslide on Jun 10, 2017, 04:50PMSorry, but what's 'F5'? Is it f' or f'' ?

Where middle C = C4, this would be

and

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:18 pm

Quote from: oslide on Jun 10, 2017, 04:50PMSorry, but what's 'F5'? Is it f' or f'' ?

F5 is standard musical pitch notation. F5=

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:20 pm

Coincidentally, I didn't realize you could change your embouchure. Isn't it your face?

ttf_trb420 · Post by **ttf_trb420** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:02 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 10, 2017, 03:31PMAiming for sound without regard for mechanics gets a lot of people in trouble. You can get a great sound on an embouchure that has no potential for overall range.

Can you elaborate on this? And the "form and finesse" of playing in the high range (which I believe you mentioned in a different thread)?

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:24 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 10, 2017, 05:02PM... Some extremely prominent and successful players play that way - Blair Bollinger and Dick Nash are the most well known. ...

Kai Winding?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:27 pm

Quote from: trb420 on Jun 10, 2017, 06:02PMCan you elaborate on this? And the "form and finesse" of playing in the high range (which I believe you mentioned in a different thread)?
I elaborate on those things in lessons when I'm being paid to do so.
Sorry, this is not the time or place.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:29 pm

Quote from: baileyman on Jun 10, 2017, 06:24PMKai Winding?
Yes

And in the trumpet world, Doc Severinson, Jon Faddis, and many more

Dennis Brain on horn

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:15 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 10, 2017, 05:18PMF5 is standard musical pitch notation. F5=

In Europe f´´ is much more common.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:30 am

To the O.P. I know you play a Yamaha YSL 448 g. Nothing more. Not your age, school, country, how long have you been playing, do you have a privat teacher who is playing trombone professionally?

My oppinion from what I can understand is that the embouchure is kind of strange. Tilting the head is not allways wrong.
More lower lip is not allways wrong.
f´´ is a good high note for the age I am guessing you are in, contra Ab is ok to. See another teacher for a second oppinion. Try Doug.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:09 am

Embouchure change often causes some real playing problems while you adapt to your new setup At some point the new embouchure doesn't work and the old embouchure doesn't work either. You have to work to make the new one work better.

The best recommendation I can give blind is to do a lot of your basic exercises (long tones, lip slurs, etc.) . For the upper register you need to do the usual rangebuilding exercises, realizing that where you used to go you may not be able for now.

If your teacher was right at the end of the road you will sound much better than you did before.

Good luck.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:18 pm

It can take time to "master" an embouchure change.

Have faith in your instructor.

Keep calm and carry on.

No charge for this.

...Geezer

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:43 pm

Success with a change isn't just a matter of practice. It really depends on whether your face is capable of functioning in the new way.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:19 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 11, 2017, 06:43PMSuccess with a change isn't just a matter of practice. It really depends on whether your face is capable of functioning in the new way.

Sorry to say I have seen too many players have their embochure changed in pursuit of what looks right and it not work, my own cousin was a fine trumpet player who played upstream .....after the change it looked classic but destroyed his career as a player!

Not what the OP wants to hear I am sure, but his case is very much a reality!

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:44 am

The OP never actually mentioned having an instructor. And yet that assumption might have been made by some within this thread. If he indeed does have an instructor, I hope you guys aren't seriously trying to cause the OP to lose faith in him?

...Geezer

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:14 am

This is from a famous trumpet text:

Some of you will recognize it.

QuotePLACE MOUTHPIECE DIRECTLY UNDER NOSE.

MOVE THE MOUTHPIECE DOWN UNTIL THE LOWER LIP FILLS ABOUT THE BOTTOM 1/3 OF THE CUP, LEAVING 2/3 ON THE TOP LIP. THERE IS ALWAYS THE DANGER OF THE MOUTHPIECE SLIPPING DOWN TOO FAR ON THE TOP LIP, THEREFORE THE STUDENT MUST KEEP A CONSTANT VIGIL AGAINST THIS HAPPENING.

The caps are not shouting, that's the way it was in the original.

That method was successful for a lot of people. But we now know one size doesn't fit all, and if the OPs teacher doesn't know that he does need to consider what parts of teaching he should keep faith with, and what should be checked elsewhere.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 am

The OP has been absent during this conversation after his initial post. Therefore, since we don't know if he has an instructor, I suggest we proceed as if he doesn't (else why did he even pose the question), removing any implications of aspersions cast upon one - which should NOT be a part of the mission of this Forum, IMO.

...Geezer

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 am

The OP has been absent during this conversation after his initial post. Therefore, since we don't know if he has an instructor, I suggest we proceed as if he doesn't (else why did he even pose the question), removing any implications of aspersions cast upon one - which should NOT be a part of the mission of this Forum, IMO.

...Geezer