which bass trombones to try?

[Pieter]

I currently play a Bach 9.5inch 50B3. Advanced amateur level. For the large Symphony orchestra I play in, or the brass ensemble, it works very well. I can absolutely make it work for big bands, but the sound so far always is a bit darker than I like. When I tried a friends Yamaha 620G, it was just better for big bands: lighter, more colorful, much better blend with the small horns of the rest of the trombone section.

So, I could just order that Yamaha. Or should I try some different trombones?.
Of course, finding a single place with many bass trombones to try is always tricky. So, I am looking for suggestions for any particular instruments that would make sense to try. Looking for a two valve horn, but can be dependent. Does not have to sound good in large symphonic settings.

Within two hours drive, there is quite a lot of options of places to go to. Could be trying Raths in Rijswijk, or whatever Adams has in stock at the moment. Or the Elkhart 71h and Abilene 73h currently for sale within a 3.5 hour drive. Getting a bit more exotic, Schmelzer can be combined with a family visit. I will also be visiting Bremen soon, but Thein and Lätzsch would have to be amazingly special for those prices. So, any suggestions?

[modelerdc]

Since you are considering vintage Conns, you are considering used horns. The Elkhart 71H was once very popular for commercial work, but unless modified it's a single trigger, which might not suit your needs. The 73H is a double, but some things to consider: Does it have a D slide? Have the triggers been split, or can you live with a E slide or rollers. Positive is that it will sound very good for big band. Negative is that it might not be as open on the valves as the Yamaha. I like the 620G, there aren't as many on the used market, but I eventually found one. If your budget can stretch for new, the 620G is nice, as is the Shires Q, but if you can afford it the Greenhoe done in the Conn style is really excellent.

[Wilco]

Always nice to try other stuff…. Another option could be to make the leadpipe removable…. Then experiment with leadpipes… or buy an Edwards slide…

[MStarke]

From time to time I play bigband with a guy who plays a Bach 50 and sounds great. Admittedly that bigband plays mostly modern stuff. More Maria Schneider than Glenn Miller. And admittedly his Bach has been modified with Lätzsch valves which might make it much more responsive.

Have you considered trying another mouthpiece with your Bach? That CAN make a substantial change. Depending on what you play, something shallower which could also have the exact same rim can make a huge difference.

I personally sold my Throja (hybrid German style, large dual bore slide...) as I don't play much orchestra anymore. For bigband and brass ensemble I feel much more comfortable with the slightly lighter and more responsive Conn-style basses that I play.

[blast]

Try the Raths if they are an easy trip. With the options, you can build them to sound just how you like.

[MrBadger]

Second vote for Rath - if you have the opportunity to try them out, you will not be disappointed.

[Pieter]

Thanks for the tips! I play a Marcinkiewicz ETB-3 mouthpiece. That is quite shallow already, and seriously lowers the effort towards a brighter sound from say a 1.5G.

The American custom brands will be hard to find here. Greenhoe has no European dealers. Shires has limited availability. Edwards is easier to find.
About the genre, newly composed music is a large part of the big band music I play, but a bit brighter and more colorful sound is what I am looking for. I can bring a tuba for the even bigger sounds...

I do have a Conn 112h, it got me one step further in learning to appreciate a different kind of sound. But it's too dark sounding for my taste, and I switched back to the Bach several years ago, after I realized I had learned to produce such a sound on that as well, but a bit more compact, more projection and a better upper range. I will likely sell the 112h, havent played it for years.

The leadpipe could be a good idea. Would that change much?
I dont want to go as far as replacing a valve section on my Bach. Easier to find a different horn.

I guess giving Atelier Pfeiffer a call to see what Rath parts they have on stock at the moment could be a good step.

[SamBTbrn]

Hoi Pieter,

Depending on where you are (Nederland?) I would always recommend trying before you buy.

Sounds like you are after an everything horn, orchestra as well as bigbands. Pfiefer has a good selection of Raths at the moment to try. Adams in Limburg has a whole large room full of shires that you could customize for yourself, as well as a number of their own Adams basses (I was there last month testing out 7 or 8 of their new prototypes). In Amsterdam around the corner from the Museumplein is the Buffet Crampon winkel and they have 4 - 5 different Courtois basses (some New York's and some Legend models) in the shop. (For Buffet you have to make an appointment in advance).

Any of these makes would work perfectly for your needs, you could test them all out before committing.

Best
Sam

[MStarke]

If you want to travel a bit further, I can recommend Musik Bertram in Freiburg/Germany.
They generally have a good selection including Greenhoe, Shires, Rath and I think also M&W as well as Conn, Bach, B&S, Courtois and others. However you would certainly want to call before to know what they actually have in stock.

If I were you and would consider buying a new bass dedicated to bigband, I would potentially look at Kühnl & Hoyer as well. They used to have a model Big Band Bass which I think was promoted by Martin van den Berg at some point. It seems like they don't officially offer this anymore, but would certainly be able to build something along those lines.

However: I am a bit surprised that the 112h didn't do it for you in that perspective. I think that's a really responsive kind of modern bass with a relatively compact sound. Maybe it's because mine is a very early example, might be a bit different than yours.

[Pieter]

Thanks, looks like I have a little trip to plan. I live near the east of The Netherlands, so all of those places work. Freiburg is a two day trip though, but that is a large selection indeed!
I'm not looking for an everything horn, I'm quite happy with the Bach 50B plus my smaller and large bore tenor trombones for everything else.

If I were you and would consider buying a new bass dedicated to bigband, I would potentially look at Kühnl & Hoyer as well. They used to have a model Big Band Bass which I think was promoted by Martin van den Berg at some point. It seems like they don't officially offer this anymore, but would certainly be able to build something along those lines.

Looks like he now promotes a Thein model: https://thein-brass.de/en/instrument/ja ... lver-star/

However: I am a bit surprised that the 112h didn't do it for you in that perspective. I think that's a really responsive kind of modern bass with a relatively compact sound. Maybe it's because mine is a very early example, might be a bit different than yours.

My 112h plays much darker and less compact than the 620G, with much worse upper register, is the conclusion both from me and the owner of the yamaha. It's from around 2016, so it is certainly a more recent example. I haven't played it in a while, will try again, but not expecting much from that.

[sf105]

an obvious candidate is to look for a King DuoGravis. The brass ones come up regularly, Silver less frequently.

[MrHCinDE]

Holton TR180? There were a couple for sale recently at either Phil Parker or Prozone in London if you fancy a quick trip over.

[Bach5G]

I liked my 620G. Preferred it to the 822 and 830 Xeno horns I compared it with.

[tbonesullivan]

I mean, if you really liked the 620G, AFAIK that particular model from Yamaha is quite consistent. It is descended from the 611/612 Trombones, which I think were intended more for Band use, so they were popular in the commercial setting over here. It's definitely a different type of design than the other Yamaha bass trombones, which are much more "bach like".

[Burgerbob]

AFAIK the 620G is just a 421G with two valves. Not related to the earlier horns.

[Pieter]

AFAIK the 620G is just a 421G with two valves. Not related to the earlier horns.

I searched the forum here, which turned up links to the parts database.
421ge: https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/ ... _id=104559
620ge: https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/ ... _id=104575

So, same leadpipe, inner slide tubes and bits of the f-valve tubing and bracing. Different bell, marked as 620, as are some 30 other parts. As for the other parts, 620 uses mostly ybl611/612 parts, where the 421 uses mostly 321 parts. Of which the 620 uses none at all. Whether this makes any difference in practice, and how this helps me choose, no idea. But the 611/612 history appears to be correct.

[Burgerbob]

Honestly, looking at the parts list, I don't see anything that looks like a lineage. It's just using old parts, not the important things like the slide, tuning slide, or bell.