Scratch Finish?

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:56 am

Has anyone done a scratch finish on an old horn with lacquer loss? If so, how? And is it true that it doesn't tarnish afterwards?

Post by **Bonearzt** » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:17 am

The "scratch" finish is done to the base metal, either before it's lacquered, or after the old lacquer is stripped.

And it will "tarnish" or patina unless it's lacquered afterwards.

Silverplate is a different story.

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:21 am

Out of curiosity, how is a silver satin finish achieved? I have an old silver satin finished pea shooter. Is there a silver brushed finished?

ithinknot · Post by **ithinknot** » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:09 am

Elow wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:21 am Out of curiosity, how is a silver satin finish achieved? I have an old silver satin finished pea shooter. Is there a silver brushed finished?

You can plate over scratched brass, of course, but the old satin/'frosted' finish is a media blast (look it up), also done before plating

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:37 am

You can also spray lacquer on a media-blast prepped horn. It looks pretty cool. If you look around the Internet, you can usually find quite a few brass instruments and saxophones with this finish. I believe Matthew Walker at M&W Custom Instruments offers it as one of his standard finishes for his trombones.

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:13 am

I guess I should have included in my question, what exactly is meant by a scratch finish, and how is it done? I am assuming it is not the same thing as taking a scotchbrite pad or steel wool to a heavily tarnished/corroded horn.

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:32 am

You need to be careful with the terms used to described brass instrument finishes. There are multiple terms for the same finish. For example, I have heard people use the terms "scratch finish" and "brush finish" to describe the same thing. When I hear the term "satin finish," I think of the traditional sand blasting or media blast finish. Many of the old Conn and Besson euphoniums had this finish with silver plate. However, I have seen instruments on the Internet advertised with the term "satin" finish, but the photos showed an instrument that was clearly a scratch finish.

When I prepare rebuild horn for a scratch or brush finish, I do the first two steps that I use on a normal bright finish (also called mirror finish)....I buff with tripoli and yellow compounds. However, the scratch finish does not require nearly as much buffing in these stages. Consequently, I find that I remove less metal to prepare for the scratch finish when compared to the more detailed buffing process for a bright finish. I'm sure that other techs might have a different routine for this and/or the next part.

To create the scratch finish, I use a combination of emory cloths, scotchbrite and medium coarse steel wool to create an even scratch finish. Some people use a buffing wheel with metal bristles for this task....it's a matter of preference. To finish the process, I do a quick buff with rouge (also called color buff) to give the scratch finish a slight reflective brilliance. The final steps are degreasing and lacquering.

For me, the scratch finish takes about the same amount of time as the bright (mirror) finish. The big advantage of the scratch finish is that it can hide a lot of the small scratches and scuffs that a horn gets with usage. For a horn rebuild, the scratch finish can preserve more of the original metal thickness. However!!! If a person wants to take a scratch finish and convert it to a bright finish, it might require the removal of a significant amount of metal in the buffing process!

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:14 pm

Thanks Brian, that answers my question!

biggiesmalls · Post by **biggiesmalls** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:53 am

Another option is 3M polishing paper:

https://www.riogrande.com/product/3m-tr ... ent/337308

Here's a scratch finish I did on a pair of tuning crooks, using 1200 grit polishing paper:

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:34 am

That looks great, biggiesmalls. Was the lacquer already gone, did you remove it first, or were you able to remove it along with the polishing? And, did you lacquer it afterwards?

biggiesmalls · Post by **biggiesmalls** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:47 am

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:34 am That looks great, biggiesmalls. Was the lacquer already gone, did you remove it first, or were you able to remove it along with the polishing? And, did you lacquer it afterwards?

Thanks! I de-lacquered first, using multiple applications of citrus stripper, then quite a bit of dent removal with old-school graduated brass dent balls and hammer chaising, then finally a light sanding with 600 grit polishing paper before using the 1200 grit. I'm just getting ready to spray with with rattle can lacquer today (it's finally warm enough here to work outdoors).

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm

Biggiesmalls pointed out something that I did not include in my description. I believe a scratch finishe looks best when the "scratch" is started with a more-coarse grit and then finished with a finer grit. Each tech has their own system and preference for grit selection.

Another consideration is the grain of the scratch. Some scratch finishes (bell flares in particular) are done with the scratch going parallel with the length of tubing. IMHO, I don't think that looks particularly good. I prefer to do my scratch finish with the grain going in cross-section with the tubing (90 degree angle to the length of the tubing).

Technically, I guess any type of grain is possible. I guess someone could actually scratch the instrument in a diagonal angle and then also do the opposite diagonal scratch. It might create a look that is similar to the mowing pattern done on many Major League Baseball fields. I'm not willing to try something like that because the potential for it to look horrible is definitely there!

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:06 pm

I did this today on my old Getzen 998 Eterna.
Took it to a guy that does ‘vapor blasting’. It only took about a half an hour and cost me $40 Canadian.
The pictures don’t do it justice because the lighting isn’t so great but it has a wonderful satin finish and looks really nice in person. This horn has a nickel outer slide but it’s hard to tell from the pictures.
The dents that you see were already there before this process.
Wish I had done this a long time ago because it completely exceeded my expectations!

D0DDB855-A717-48E2-9C84-0A0A8A8391F2.jpeg

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Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:08 pm

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Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:09 pm

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MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:25 pm

That’s beautiful!

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:17 am

I think all the different blasting techniques (sand, vapor, media, etc....), when applied to brass instrument finishes, can be adjusted to get similar results. It is a very elegant look if done well.

I know that sand blasting is a messy process. For small projects like instruments, it requires a containment booth. I have heard that vapor blasting requires the same containment equipment. I imagine that media blast is similar.

For those who have worked with these blasting techniques on instruments, I am wondering what advantages/disadvantages exist? Why did you choose the type of blasting equipment that you use?

Peacemate · Post by **Peacemate** » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm

Sniffynose wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:06 pm I did this today on my old Getzen 998 Eterna.
Took it to a guy that does ‘vapor blasting’. It only took about a half an hour and cost me $40 Canadian.
The pictures don’t do it justice because the lighting isn’t so great but it has a wonderful satin finish and looks really nice in person. This horn has a nickel outer slide but it’s hard to tell from the pictures.
The dents that you see were already there before this process.
Wish I had done this a long time ago because it completely exceeded my expectations!

How was the lacquer beforehand? I have a 3b with interesting lacquer wear and a vapor blasting place nearby and want to add cool factor.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:27 pm

The lacquer before was very scratched up in places but mostly intact I think. Kinda hard to remember now cause I never used this horn much.

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:16 am

Peacemate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm How was the lacquer beforehand? I have a 3b with interesting lacquer wear and a vapor blasting place nearby and want to add cool factor.

If you do it, please share results! I have a 3BF I’m looking to remove the lacquer from and this is an interesting process!

Sniffynose wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:27 pm The lacquer before was very scratched up in places but mostly intact I think. Kinda hard to remember now cause I never used this horn much.

Is there any risk of damage this way, to the slide or otherwise? Did you put anything on the horn after the blasting?

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:26 pm

I don’t believe it will damage the trombone but that may also depend on the experience of the person doing the vapour blasting. This is mildest form of blasting available.
I had the bell and the outer slide done only, with no treatment on the horn afterwards of any kind.
It didn’t damage my horn at all and it pretty much plays the same. If I was to guess maybe a slight bit softer of a feel at least behind the bell anyways.
As soon as I get a hold of another 3b bell I am going to do the same thing to it.
I have attached a brochure with some information

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:32 pm

King 2B+ before and after.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:34 pm

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:36 pm

After

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:37 pm

After

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:38 pm

Post by **Bonearzt** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:43 pm

Nice!!!

My preference though would be to polish the main cross braces on the bell and tuning slide, and also the hand brace areas on the slide.
Also the bell engraving REALLY pops if polished.

Did you satin the inside of the bell after??

Just MHO...Nice job!!

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:46 pm

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:48 pm

Another horn I took to get vapor blasted.
Lighting isn’t great so it looks much better in person.
Great satin finish!
The bell has a nice reddish tint to it and inside the bell it’s even a bit darker.
Since this bell has a high copper content it plays better with a coat of lacquer and a counterweight, so I added both.
By the way, this bell plays great!

MagnumH · Post by **MagnumH** » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:05 pm

Holy cow that’s gorgeous! Great work! And this is just at an industrial blasting place, not a specialist facility? Around $40CAD per horn? This is too tempting for both my Kings now (AND I wonder how the sousa would come, I gotta admit!).

biggiesmalls · Post by **biggiesmalls** » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:19 pm

Here's scratch finish touch-up I did with 600/1200 grit 3M polishing paper, just a simple clean-up of the exposed brass at the hand contact point on a Martin Committee cork barrel, leaving as much of the original lacquer intact as possible:

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:07 pm

1952 King 2B Silver sonic after vapor blast.
Plays way better without the stock lacquer but I did apply one coat of my own matte spray lacquer.
Pic beside my 3B silver sonic for reference. Lighting is bad here, looks way better in person.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:01 am

Very nice! Been thinking a lot about this.. I have a horn that had most of the lacquer sanded/scuffed off. Hopping the vapor blasting could get the rest of the lacquer off and leave me with a decent finish, perhaps to be scratched afterwards depending on the outcome. Wondering though how to go about bringing the nickel accents back to bright afterwards. If I masked them they would still need to be stripped and quite a bit of buffing to get them fairly uniform.. thinking it would probably be less work to buff them after accomplishing a uniform finish?
What did you do to protect slide tubes and tuning slide legs?
Thanks a bunch for sharing.
EZ

hornbuilder · Post by **hornbuilder** » Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:39 am

The usual way of doing bright/satin adjacent areas is to do the bright color areas first, then mask them, and apply the satin process. It is much more work to bring satin finished parts back up to bright! Considerable material would be removed.

Wondering who the company is that does this for you, Sniffy?

davdud101 · Post by **davdud101** » Mon Feb 12, 2024 6:39 am

Dang, I tend to be partial to a brush finish as it looks more natural on brass, but those satin horns look phenomenal!

I'm working on a Yamaha 354 where I left the inner bell in full lacquer and stripped the outside of the bell to do a radial brush/scratch finish. I'm surprised how easy it is and how dang good it looks. Re-lacquering is the part I'm most concerned about.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:50 pm

Tricky, but not impossible to mask some parts off. Would have to be heavy duty tape - the spray is wide and powerful. Ask tech to avoid the taped areas perhaps.

Remove cork/felt bumpers. With slide assembled, spray cork barrels only, carefully separate from outer slide, then spray outers. Tricky and delicate process and the media gets everywhere so wash thoroughly after.

I recommend only doing the outer slide because the inners can get scratched too easy.

Bells are easy, spray assembled without the counterweight.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 3:23 pm

Thanks for that... Starting to think I may have the whole horn sprayed then come behind and scratch the brass and leave the nickel satin.. should produce a similar but subtle effect.
Think there would be any danger of damage to threads on the screw ring?
EZ

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 3:24 pm

Whoops
EZ

aasavickas · Post by **aasavickas** » Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:38 pm

When you sell your free horn, don't use Reverb, they favor the buyer.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:10 am

Leave the slide lock on to protect the threads, but remove the split valve and spring.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:24 am

aasavickas wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 8:38 pm When you sell your free horn, don't use Reverb, they favor the buyer.

Pretty sure they favor honesty in advertising.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:25 am

Sniffynose wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:10 am Leave the slide lock on to protect the threads, but remove the split valve and spring.

Roger that
EZ

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:03 pm

Threads on the bell section get blasted and totally fine afterwards. I have done 4 bells now.
I have applied a light coat of matte spray lacquer for brass after and you can’t even tell but it looks and plays well, just don’t use too many coats.

Sniffynose · Post by **Sniffynose** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 4:13 pm

‘75 King 3B F
1 small piece left original orange on the rotor. Lots of feadback behind the bell when played and has a fantastic tone.
I need better lighting.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Mon Feb 19, 2024 5:36 pm

Gorgeous!
EZ

240z · Post by **240z** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:40 am

I have an old horn on ebay order... I might give it this treatment. Do you all think I could use aircraft stripper, then wet sand and rattle can lacquer?

240z · Post by **240z** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:25 am

I think I'm gonna make a trip to the big box store... for some citri strip scotch Brite pads etc... these all turned out nice

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 1:23 pm

As far as I know, vapor blasting uses dry ice or something similar, which then immediately evaporates. They actually use this as a method of mold remediation, as it can blast off the mildew from wood without causing any real harm to it. It also means that there is no media to clean up afterwards, and it can be used outside of a blasting cabinet.

Fruitysloth · Post by **Fruitysloth** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 3:11 pm

Going to try this out sometime this week with a Kanstul Thayer horn! Will post pics when done!

blap73 · Post by **blap73** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 4:45 pm

Citrus Stripper works well on older (pre-epoxy) finishes. But on the modern stuff (think Conn / King 'orange' finish) it barely made a dent. Ez-Off oven cleaner worked. But left the brass blackened. Brass polish made quick work of the blackened brass.