Sub payment

[Kneesks]

Hello all! I'm subbing for an orchestra(Cleveland Womens Orchestra) on their anniversary concert, and the director said we need to discuss compensation, but paid gigs is completely new to me. I am curious as to how this kind of thing is discussed, vs how you value your own playing? I'm only playing on 2/6 pieces(Fanfare and debussy) and they aren't extremely hard, but also I'm not the greatest trombonist in the world and don't want to overprice myself.

Any tips/help/ideas?

[Kdanielsen]

Doesn’t matter how many of the pieces you play or how hard the music is.

[tbdana]

What are the others being paid?

[AtomicClock]

As a confirmed amateur, this doesn't come up for me often -- I generally play for free. But when it does, I tend to charge based on how much of a bummer the gig is. You'll be sitting there idle for four pieces. You gotta pay gas. Maybe purchase the right clothing. How fun are the pieces you will be playing?

If you aspire to be more than an amateur, don't take my advice. At what point do students join the union?

[GGJazz]

Hi all .
Hi Kneesks .

Of course , the amount of money one have to get for a gig it depends on a lot of variables things , such as the Orchestra/Band level ( amateurs ; students ; advanced students ; professional ; super-professional ; etc ) , and the player' ability , level , reputation , etc .
So , it could vary from X$ to 10X$ , to say.

To me , as suggested above by Tbdana , the better thing would be to ask to the others players how much they are paid for . So you can start around this point on .

Usually , in an Orchestra , it should be that there are different payments for Concertmaster , Principal chairs , 2nd chairs , etc.

Regards
Giancarlo

[BGuttman]

In my orchestra we pay subs between $50 and $100. We are a small (and poor) group and can't really pay good money.

If the regular players are paid, you should get about twice what they do.

Note that we are not a "per service" orchestra. Some Per Service groups will pay between 60% and 100% of the concert fee for each rehearsal.

There are Union regulations for all of this if the Orchestra has some kind of agreement with the Local. Be sure to ask, especially if you are also a Union member.

Note that if you ask for too much money, you can ruin your chances of ever being called again.

Just a few things to ask as you negotiate.

[Doug Elliott]

Twice what the regulars get??

[officermayo]

As others have said, the selections and/or how much you are playing is immaterial. You are being paid for your time, transportation, years of practice and equipment. Our local Symphony pays subs $300 for one rehearsal and performance .
My big band pays $100 per gig without a rehearsal.

Keep in mind this is a small town. Geography matters in these situations.

[CharlieB]

Had to look up Cleveland Women's Orchestra...........
Unlike the Cleveland Orchestra, the Cleveland Women's Orchestra is a charitable non-profit organization.
I know how tight money is when you're in college, but.........
You might think about just helping the bandleader out of her dilemma without negotiating for money. You will start a friendship that is way more valuable than whatever small $$$ you might make for one performance. Better yet, you will have even more friends in the orchestra when the word gets out that you were a team player.

[CalgaryTbone]

"Team player" can go both ways - if the players have had to work to get the organization to recognize what they bring to it and pay them, then a player that shows up and plays for free is undercutting that work that they have done.

I realize that this is probably not a high paying gig, but I would expect the same money as everyone else. In this case, no more or less seems appropriate to me.

An instrument costs money to purchase and then to maintain. Private lessons cost money, and the people that teach are (rightfully) compensated for them. Transportation and peoples' time deserve to be respected and compensated. A music degree can be very expensive, and certainly isn't free - even someone on a full scholarship has living expenses to cover while they study.

If this orchestra is a hobby for everyone, then perhaps there's no fee, but then there is also very little firm commitment to the organization. If money is being offered to some, in my opinion, it should be offered to all.

My suggestion would be to ask for the same as the person that you are replacing. You don't seem to be looking for a big payday out of this - if the fee is lower than what you hoped for, then you know to think twice about working there again.

Jim Scott

[LeTromboniste]

The right answer is, the same the other subs are being paid. Don't undervalue yourself, and certainly don't let people who hire you undervalue you.

I'm really not a big fan of an organiser telling me "oh we have to discuss/negotiate your fee". If it's to hire my ensemble for a gig, then yes of course, but if it's to hire me as an individual player among another people you're going to hire separately, no, sorry, it's your job to make a budget, set the fee, give me the details, and then I may or may not accept the gig.

I generally quite despise the practice of paying different people on the same gig a different fee (aside from "leader's fees" and the difference in pay for principals when it's clearly established in the CBO or union norms, and eventually when there are clear differences in context like local musicians paid by the hour/service and flown-in musicians paid a daily fee). I've been on all sides of this issue – as a player being paid less or offered more than others, and as an organizer having to deal with people trying to negotiate a better fee for themselves (but not for others) or being pressured by a co-presenter to offer more to certain people because of scarcity – and the practice just strikes me as unprincipled and weird.



Couple anecdotes with this issue: years ago I was on a project where the first colleague who was asked (and who often would be asked to book the whole wind section of similar projects) told the organiser before accepting the gig that the fee was not adequate. After the organiser agreed on a higher fee, that colleague recommended the rest of us (but the booking wasn't actually done through him). He was shocked once we got there to realise that we all got hired with the original lower fee and only he got the higher pay he thought he had negotiated for all of us. On the other side of this, I've turned down a student-y gig at some point that was not very well paid but also it was to accompany a children's choir with little budget and the overall situation seemed kind of reasonable. But I was new to that city and consulted a friend who said "you shouldn't take this, it's undercutting the market, these organisations just need to pay more acceptable fees and we need to stick together so that fees can go up for everyone". Fair enough – I didn't take it (although several colleagues from our conservatory who played other instruments did take it). Come the time of that project, I learn that the trombone player ended up being the very colleague I had consulted, who negotiated themself a fee 2 or 3 times higher than what was offered (and than what was paid to every other of our colleagues on other instruments on that gig).

[WGWTR180]

Hello all! I'm subbing for an orchestra(Cleveland Womens Orchestra) on their anniversary concert, and the director said we need to discuss compensation, but paid gigs is completely new to me. I am curious as to how this kind of thing is discussed, vs how you value your own playing? I'm only playing on 2/6 pieces(Fanfare and debussy) and they aren't extremely hard, but also I'm not the greatest trombonist in the world and don't want to overprice myself.

Any tips/help/ideas?

Any update?