Why does Alessi get such a bad rap on this site?

[Posaunus]

[bitbckt]

Not another one…

[AndrewMeronek]

Joe Alessi is BAD. Real BAD.

[norbie2018]

I'm down. Alessi is one of the best trombonists of all time, and when he chooses to be, also a great musician.

However... I have heard, both live and in recordings, plenty of instances where he prioritizes the trombone over the music. It's very impressive (to us, anyway) but it can be a real drag to the rest of the production.

The feeling I get, and this of course is just me spitballing, that in his mind he thinks "I have the ability... so why not do it?"

I'm not sure he was ever told that with great power comes great responsibility.

I agree that he is one of the best in his genre. I disagree that he is not musical. Please post a recording where he prioritizes trombone over music, otherwise your words are hollow, indeed.

[tbdana]

I agree that he is one of the best in his genre. I disagree that he is not musical. Please post a recording where he prioritizes trombone over music, otherwise your words are hollow, indeed.

Yeah, I haven't heard that either. And I don't have any criticisms of Joe Alessi. I think he's fabulous, and perhaps the best trombonist alive today.

I'm also of the thought that I shouldn't criticize someone I can't do better than. And I can't do better than Joe Alessi. As a trombonist, I can't find anything to criticize.

[Burgerbob]

.

[CalgaryTbone]

I'd call that one of the best Bolero endings I've ever heard. It is marked FFF possible, by the way, and those section glisandos are balanced and exciting!

Jim Scott

[GabrielRice]

Do you really think Joe will never look at this site? You might be right that he won't. He's a little busy.

Do you really think none of Joe's students will tell him what's being written about him on this site?

[norbie2018]

Well, I went to his recital at ITF (and heard him in Slide Monsters as well). Did you?

Here's some video of what I think is a good example. Check out 4:00 to the end

No, I did not hear him live at the ITF. If you think your audio example proves him unmusical, they were glissandos - of course they sound trombone-ish. What do you expect, that's what Ravel called for!

You haven't made your point and I don't think you can. Can we talk about something else now?

[Burgerbob]

No, I did not hear him live at the ITF. If you think your audio example proves him unmusical, they were glissandos - of course they sound trombone-ish. What do you expect, that's what Ravel called for!

You haven't made your point and I don't think you can. Can we talk about something else now?

Please delete both of my quotes, thank you

[GGJazz]

Hi all .

Well , im my mind Joe Alessi is one of the best players ever , and I do not understand how he can be criticized.

Apart this , for what concerns the Bolero video , in a Symphony Orchestra a thing as the amount of volume is NOT a players choice ; so , for sure was the conductor asking to the trbn section for this very loud playing for the ending . And having such a trbn section , he knew how loud they could do it .

Regards
Giancarlo

[Kdanielsen]

That was the best Bolero ending I think I’ve ever heard! Thrilling! Mr. Alessi is the best in the business. No other trombonist has inspired me more than him. This site has gone off its rocker lately…

[BGuttman]

I can delete your post, but it won't be removed from all the posts where it was copied. Sorry.

[Burgerbob]

Welp. Please disregard my comments here.

[jacobgarchik]

Do you really think Joe will never look at this site? You might be right that he won't. He's a little busy.

Do you really think none of Joe's students will tell him what's being written about him on this site?

I think any professional, especially a professional as esteemed and accomplished and lauded as he is, can take a healthy dose of criticism.

[GabrielRice]

Do you really think Joe will never look at this site? You might be right that he won't. He's a little busy.

Do you really think none of Joe's students will tell him what's being written about him on this site?

I think any professional, especially a professional as esteemed and accomplished and lauded as he is, can take a healthy dose of criticism.

I agree, but what good does it do?

And "XXXXXX" is not criticism so much as hearsay about personality.

I know Joe. Not very well, but I know him. He's a very strong-willed person who speaks very directly. I'll bet he can take that comment and shrug it off too. But again, what good does it do?

Also, it's not just about Joe. It's also about his students, his fans, etc. Why antagonize them if you don't have to?

[jacobgarchik]

I would steer people away from personal comments, especially if they are based on second hand info…
on the other hand, critiquing playing styles, especially of people viewed as important figures, is important. Students need to critique themselves in order to get better, and they do that in part by learning to articulate what they like and don’t like. And associate themselves with schools of thought, stylistic schools; learn to integrate the parts you like and leave behind what you don’t.

Love hearing Alessi with the Phil. Have also been quite impressed by various recordings like the Rouse. The recent chick corea recording I thought was bad. He just isn’t convincing to me in jazz-influenced playing. Certain stylistic nuances fall flat, like doing a glissando and keeping it full volume in a way that a jazz player would never do. But man, the consistency of sound in all registers is very inspiring.

[Matt K]

For what it's worth Joe doesn't post here often but he is, indeed, a member of this site. I verified that information personally. That said, I will admit I laughed when I saw the title of this post.

When I was in grad school, one of my professors had an "ice breaker" game that was called something like, "Youtube Commentor or 19th century music critic"; a quote was presented from, well a YouTube clip and an 19th century music critic and it was not always obvious which was which. I think quite a bit of it is... over the top, but that has been the case now for nigh on 200 years. Point being that I get the other thread since there may be bruised sensibilities but nothing even coming close to some of the stuff that was written about Brahams by his contemporaries, but regardless, it makes sense to call it out when it happens... but perhaps only when it happens? In absense of that, it's a bit closer to tilting at windmills.

And I completely agree with Gabe; I sincerely doubt Joe would be personally offended by any of our comments, but on the other hand, it seems rather pointless to say anything that could potentially alienate one of the most accomplished trombonists ever, especially since the music world is so small and he's still got a few years left on his career.

[tbdana]

Had no idea I'd said something controversial. But I respect it and edited my post.

[harrisonreed]

I've seen Joe three times live. Nobody has a sound like that dude does. His rendition of the Rouse Concerto was unbelievable in Ft. Collins. While this other piece wasn't entirely my cup of tea (unlike the Rouse!), the Chick Corea concerto he played in Tokyo was rendered beautifully, and with a new sound on his new horn. I think that maybe in the 90s he and a lot of other trombonists were experimenting with a dark, heavy sound (which is incredible on pieces like the Peaslee sonata), and he has moved towards this kind of brilliant, colorful and shimmering sound we know him for today. I don't think he's been better than he's been playing recently.

I think Lindberg said the best compliment about the guy I have ever heard, something like "Joe, I have to say that I've never seen anyone show up as in-shape and prepared to play as you. I heard you and realized that I better get back in and start practicing harder." That was a couple months ago during their recording project.

Can Joe dish out criticism on students' playing? Ohh yeah, he can. But maybe students need to hear it from someone at the top. It might be what makes the switch activate to really get in the weeds on seeking consistency in excellence, or even flip the switch to realize the wall they are trying to climb is taller than they banked on.

At the Tokyo concert, Joe came out as a kind of encore to switch with the principal and play Bolero. It was totally programmed to happen that way, not to make the outstanding Japanese trombonist look or feel bad -- you don't fly the world's most famous orchestral trombonist out all the way to Tokyo just to play a solo ... You gotta hear what he actually sounds like in the orchestra too! So he comes out, and we get to hear Bolero with Joe Alessi in Suntory Hall. Somehow he sounded even better sitting in the orchestra. He must've practiced Bolero a few more times than the Corea piece, I guess, lol. People were going nuts after that piece.

My wife was also at both those concerts and she usually doesn't like the trombone. She used to play it, thinks is boring and sloppy. The two times that she said "oh wow, did you hear the SOUND that guy could get? I should start playing again." was at Lindberg's recital and hearing Alessi.

* Edited sp.

[Posaunus]

True confessions:
I started this thread to expose the negativity and hypocrisy of many who post here. I think I have proved my point.
More than enough "snark" and back-handed compliments on this site rather than sincere criticism and commentary.

I am not a "friend" of Alessi, but have known him since 1981 when I played with him (sort of - offstage in "Pines of Rome"). At our few brief meetings since then, Joe has been unfailingly friendly and polite - the epitome of a professional. I know that he's a demanding (and effective) teacher. Wish I had taken some lessons from him. Needless to say, I revere Joe's classical tromboning. You may not like his jazz efforts as well - but how good a "crossover" player are you?

I was definitely not a friend and colleague of Bill Watrous's (as was tbdana), but I did have the pleasure of sitting next to him (late in his life) and chatting as we accompanied him a couple of times at Bones West. Again, he was friendly - even jovial. And his playing - live as well as in his many recordings - was musical and of course technically impressive. Showman, yes - but what a monster trombonist.

Please let's give these talented artists their due, and forgive them a bit if their playing isn't exactly to our tastes.

P.S.: Speaking of talented artists, let me give a shout-out to Peter Steiner, another top-of-the line trombonist who should be listened to - and a great guy to boot.

[jacobgarchik]

Folks, it’s ok to critique. Yes, even if you are not as good as the player you are critiquing. Pretty sure my favourite music critics would generally sound awful in a concert.
I don’t understand what people are saying about Alessi and his career and alienating him. Are you saying critiquing him might damage someone’s career? That he’s too *powerful* to critique?

[MStarke]

I don't see a reason why one shouldn't have an opinion and talk about it. Of course in a respectful way. It's not a prerequisite to be on the same level.

And I am happy for Mr Alessi to read my opinion. Pretty sure he either wouldn't care or would accept it as just one person's point of view.

Of course he is on another level in all aspects of trombone playing and (probably) music than I will ever be.

I have heard him live a few times and also watched and listened to some of his recordings.
Yes, it's impressive. But to my ears it's very very predictable and one dimensional. It simply does not touch me musically very much and is somehow mechanical to me. I typically do not listen to his recordings more than once. But that's okay, it's just not my thing. For me it's not inspirational in a musical way, but still somehow just a little bit of a role model in a technical way.

Obviously he has made a great career out of it, for very good reasons. His playing is certainly the best for what is demanded from him.

So if Mr Alessi would read this, as said I guess he would be okay with other people's opinions.
And nobody is so big and godlike that it shouldn't be allowed to express an opinion in a respectful way.

[Digidog]

Not another one…

Now we have to have lengthy threads and discussions about every major trombonist there is, and why that trombonist gets such bad, bad rap here - we're talking bad, not just poor.

When we're done with all the major players, we start threads about ourselves, like: Why does "insert username" get such a bad rap here?

TC will cook and steam.

[Matt K]

Folks, it’s ok to critique. Yes, even if you are not as good as the player you are critiquing. Pretty sure my favourite music critics would generally sound awful in a concert.
I don’t understand what people are saying about Alessi and his career and alienating him. Are you saying critiquing him might damage someone’s career? That he’s too *powerful* to critique?

No, there were some things that could easily be taken out of context though and they have since been edited. Similarly, Bill isn’t above criticism either. All I’m suggesting is that what is said here is public, and I approach these things by not saying anything here I wouldn’t say to somebody’s face. I don’t think that approach is shared by everybody at the moment

[harrisonreed]

True confessions:
I started this thread to expose the negativity and hypocrisy of many who post here. I think I have proved my point.
More than enough "snark" and back-handed compliments on this site rather than sincere criticism and commentary.

Both this and the Watrous thread have proven to be based on unfounded presumptions. I hardly see any negativity on either thread. Mostly support for people.

[BGuttman]

There is a big difference between not caring for a particular player's style and bashing his abilities. You are perfectly within your rights to not like someone's style but you should not decry their abilities just because you don't like what they play. I've seen people with phenomenal ability play things I really don't like. So what. Doesn't make them bad players.

Incidentally, I actually carried Joe's mute bag once. And turned pages for his accompanist. And introduced him at a session of the New England Brass Conference. He was very nice to me and gave a wonderful seminar.

[imsevimse]

I like Joe Alessis sound. He is one of the best solist I have heard live. It's a privilege to live in a time where we can compare the outstanding performances by the best players. I like Ian Bousfiield and Christian Lindbergh too. We can have opinions about their interpretation and we may not like everything they have ever done. Technically they are fantastic but they do sound very different. I like all and accept they sound different. There are more good trombone players now available than ever. I think the ending of Bolero was a bit different from other recordings Ive heard. They started the gliss right on the beat and reach the top note right on the second beat if I remember correctly i think I've heard it start just before the beat in other takes. I might mix things up but that was something that I heard as "new". I haven't played the thing myself, unfortunately. I liked it.

/Tom

[Cmillar]

When I lived in NYC in the '90's, I was fortunate to hear some pretty awesome trombone playing.

- Alessi playing Mahler's 3rd (hard to imagine any finer interpretation than the night I heard it)

- the New York Trombone Quartet playing Ed Neumeister's arrangement of the Bartok String Quartet #4 (I was impressed that Alessi could 'hang' with Jim Pugh, Ed Numeister and Dave Taylor on a piece like this that required very nimble playing and some extended techniques. FYI... Alessi played 3rd trombone in the group on his .547 horn. Pugh, Neumeister and Taylor are three of the finest musicians on the planet, so that was quite the group to hear live!

- and for a critique: the 'gross-est' playing I heard was when Alessi played lead trombone in the 'big band' that plays within the orchestra in Leonard Bernstein's 'Prelude, Fugue, and Riggs'. Without exaggeration, I can say that he singelhandedly and totally obliterated the entire NY Phil with his 'over the top' lead playing. (it was kind of embarrassingly loud, and people in the audience were actually looking around at each other as in "did you hear that obnoxious trombone player too?"

But, we've all done dumb things when we're young, right?

[Mr412]

I'm still trying to get over Matt's use of the word "nigh". lol

[GabrielRice]

True confessions:
I started this thread to expose the negativity and hypocrisy of many who post here. I think I have proved my point.

Wow. So you set a trap. That's exceedingly rude.

Moderators, I would request you shut this topic down and ask Posaunus not to engage in such behavior in the future.

[Matt K]

Yeah this is not a productive conversation, I'm locking this.