Jazz Improv-Key vs Chords

[mark10450]

Started playing again recently and have never been a strong improv player. Anything on paper and I'm golden, however improv...in high school and college I'd just usually play high and fast without much thought behind the progression of the solo. We also didn't do hardly any music theory at all in high school, and I didn't stick around in college long enough.

So when looking at chord changes on a piece that's in the key of Eb, would chord changes trump the key? My mind tells me yes since if the backing folks are playing certain chords I'd want to align with what they're playing, I guess I'm just seeking confirmation.

[ithinknot]

So when looking at chord changes on a piece that's in the key of Eb, would chord changes trump the key? My mind tells me yes since if the backing folks are playing certain chords I'd want to align with what they're playing, I guess I'm just seeking confirmation.

Yes, sort of... though the question is a bit like "which matters more, words or sentences?"

The words are heard and function within the context of the sentence; the chords are heard and function within the context of the key.

Eb Fm7 Bb7 Eb doesn't give you any chromatic trouble. All those chords are made up of notes within the Eb major scale.

If we change that to

Eb F Bb7 Eb

then yes, you play A naturals with the F major chord. (Of course you can still play Ab instead, but it will clash with the chord and function as a "blue"/dissonant note in this context.)

But an F major scale also includes E naturals, so do you change that too? Not necessarily... you're hearing the F major chord within the "key of Eb" context, so Ebs are still more expected.

Obviously there's a lot more to it but, as an introductory rule, if the chord includes notes from outside the home key scale then those notes become consonant during the duration of that chord, but it doesn't always mean you need to change the rest of the scale.

Hope that helps. There's lots of music theory on YouTube.

[Nolankberk]

It's always good to outline the chords. Sometimes depending on what you're going for you can kind of float over some changes or play completely outside, but these should be conscious decisions with a purpose. Playing in the key but not playing changes you can still play a good solo, but it doesn't have impact. Curtis Fuller on moments notice is an example of this. (he was amazing on the rest of the album though)

[Mr412]

That is a fantastic question and I'm so glad you asked it. It has confounded me, too. Let's take it even further in the key of Eb. Suppose there is a G7 chord. I might think that was a typo and it should really be a Gm7 chord. And yet, there it is, a pesky B in the melody line as an important note. So ok, the G7 chord should work. But if there wasn't a B in the melody line; if it was a Bb and I go ahead and play the G7 chord as is, my teeth rattle. WTF!

Ok, we can't discount the possibility of a typo and I have made chord changes in accompaniments when the original chord sounds too atonal. After all, fake books are notorious for errors. Or was it an error and there I go round and round again.

I have come to the conclusion that chords are shorthand for scales and that any note in the scale represented by a chord should work IFF it sounds right. I also decided I can't simply improv cerebrally within a given song purely off chord changes, or I will sound like a machine that doesn't know any better. The ears have to be engaged.

I'll have to try the tip of playing within the key and ignoring the chords and see how that works if I'm stuck b/c I can't process complex chord changes fast enough on-the-fly.

[mark10450]

Thanks everyone for the answers and help, definitely appreciated.

[Doug Elliott]

If you're studying a particular tune, listen to some different recordings and see what others have done. Transcribe solos of the great players, not just trombone players, and see how they follow the chords, or not - it's often a combination, or following different chords or chord substitutions. And when you're playing with others, a lot depends on how the rhythm section is playing - what chords are they using? Do you follow them or will they follow you?
It never hurts to stick around the 3rds and 7ths of the chords, as long as they are the correct ones. Especially if it's that B in a G7 in the key of Eb.
There are no wrong notes, just wrong ways to use them.

[AndrewMeronek]

If you're studying a particular tune, listen to some different recordings and see what others have done. Transcribe solos of the great players, not just trombone players, and see how they follow the chords, or not - it's often a combination, or following different chords or chord substitutions.

Yes! Different great players will have different ways they approach improvising. The greats will just about always be very clear on their intentions and giving a great solo a hard listen and analysis will tell you what they intended to do, not just what they did.

[tbdana]

I'd say play the chords if you can, and the key if you have to. It's kind of an "it depends" question, because there are so many possible answers, and the options can swallow you whole.

Most jazz tunes change keys multiple times during a chorus. It's very, very common to see a progression like Em7, A7, Dm7, G7, Cmaj7. That's almost all in the key of C, right? You can play a C-major scale on top of those changes and not sound too stupid. But really that's a ii-V7 in D followed by a ii-V7-I in C.

And that's just a really simple example. If I recall, Coltrane's "Giant Steps" goes through something like 10 key changes in a 16-bar head. So it definitely behooves you to be able to play the changes rather than just the key signature. And playing the changes isn't just playing in a key. You get into a lot of altered chords (e.g., Bb7(-9,+9,+11)) that, if you really want to play them right almost require altered scales, like the half-step/whole-step diminished scale on that particular chord, for example. It's a rabbit hole you can lose yourself in, for sure. LOL! You can get seriously deep into it.

But honestly, before becoming fluent in all that, you can get away with a lot of jazz and you can play some excellent-sounding solos by just using pentatonic scales and blues scales. And that's where I'd start, if you're overwhelmed by all the chord changes. Those are foundational scales you need to know, anyway. And if you're just playing the key signature like you say you are now, you're probably safer playing on the Lydian mode rather than the major scale, just because that raised 4th avoids a lot of funky sounding clashes and gets you though a lot of common internal key changes. (If you're not familiar with the Lydian mode, it's a major scale with a raised 4th, or a scale built on the 4th step of a major scale. Like, if you alter an F major scale by playing a B-natural rather than a B-flat, you're playing an F Lydian mode.)

And follow Doug Elliot's good advice in his post, above.

[GGJazz]

Hi all .

Well , a progression like E-7 / A7 / D-7 / G7 / C maj is not a II- /V7 of D followed by a II- / V7 of C . There is not a change of key here .
It is all in the key of C : E- is the III- chord , A7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the II- chord ( D-) , D- is the II- chord , G7 is the V7 chord, C is the I maj . The E- chords can also be analyzed as RELATED II- CHORD ( related to the A7 ) . The A7 chord will have allowable tensions that will reflect the quality of the resolution' chord ( D-) , for example a b13 ( F natural) .

As in the example mentioned above by Mr412 , Eb / G7 : if we are in the key of Eb , Eb is the I maj chord , G7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the VI- chord ( C-) . So you can see something like Eb / G7/C- ecc . On this G7 chord you can play a B natural , of course , but also a Bb , because it is the #9 ( A#) , that is an allowable tension , being that the resolution' chord C- have a Bb in his scale . This G7 can also resolve to a Ab ( the IV chord in Eb) ; so you can see Eb / G7 / Ab / ecc .

Secondary dominant are chords that contains at least one tone that is not diatonic to the key of a tune, but they are built over a diatonic root .So , for example in the key of C maj , we have secondary dominant for the chords on scale degree II , III , IV , V , VI .
C / A7 / D- / B7 / E- / C7 / F / D7 / G7 / E7 / A- .
So , when you find a secondary dominant in a harmonic progression , you have the opportunity to play some non- diatonic ( to the main key) tones , and this will make your lines more interesting .

I think that if we improvise only with the diatonic tones of the key in which a song is based , for all the harmonic progression of a song , this can be a little "boring" ; and very difficult , at the same time..!

So , in my opinion , will be better to learn also how harmony works , if we want to optimize ours skills at improvisation . And , first of all , check at the jazz' master solos , learning to play it ( better by ear) , and then analyze them .


Regards
Giancarlo

[Mr412]

Hi all .

As in the example mentioned above by Mr412 , Eb / G7 : if we are in the key of Eb , Eb is the I maj chord , G7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the VI- chord ( C-) . So you can see something like Eb / G7/C- ecc . On this G7 chord you can play a B natural , of course , but also a Bb , because it is the #9 ( A#) , that is an allowable tension , being that the resolution' chord C- have a Bb in his scale . This G7 can also resolve to a Ab ( the IV chord in Eb) ; so you can see Eb / G7 / Ab / ecc .

Regards
Giancarlo

Thank you. That explains what I see in music sometimes that didn't make sense to me.

[tbdana]

Hi all .

Well , a progression like E-7 / A7 / D-7 / G7 / C maj is not a II- /V7 of D followed by a II- / V7 of C . There is not a change of key here .
It is all in the key of C : E- is the III- chord , A7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the II- chord ( D-) , D- is the II- chord , G7 is the V7 chord, C is the I maj . The E- chords can also be analyzed as RELATED II- CHORD ( related to the A7 ) . The A7 chord will have allowable tensions that will reflect the quality of the resolution' chord ( D-) , for example a b13 ( F natural) .

As in the example mentioned above by Mr412 , Eb / G7 : if we are in the key of Eb , Eb is the I maj chord , G7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the VI- chord ( C-) . So you can see something like Eb / G7/C- ecc . On this G7 chord you can play a B natural , of course , but also a Bb , because it is the #9 ( A#) , that is an allowable tension , being that the resolution' chord C- have a Bb in his scale . This G7 can also resolve to a Ab ( the IV chord in Eb) ; so you can see Eb / G7 / Ab / ecc .

Secondary dominant are chords that contains at least one tone that is not diatonic to the key of a tune, but they are built over a diatonic root .So , for example in the key of C maj , we have secondary dominant for the chords on scale degree II , III , IV , V , VI .
C / A7 / D- / B7 / E- / C7 / F / D7 / G7 / E7 / A- .
So , when you find a secondary dominant in a harmonic progression , you have the opportunity to play some non- diatonic ( to the main key) tones , and this will make your lines more interesting .

I think that if we improvise only with the diatonic tones of the key in which a song is based , for all the harmonic progression of a song , this can be a little "boring" ; and very difficult , at the same time..!

So , in my opinion , will be better to learn also how harmony works , if we want to optimize ours skills at improvisation . And , first of all , check at the jazz' master solos , learning to play it ( better by ear) , and then analyze them .


Regards
Giancarlo

You deftly corrected my simplistic (and perhaps poorly considered) example of moving ii-V progressions, but IMHO stand to overwhelm the OP with concepts of secondary dominants and such before he even knows what a ii-V-I is, and cause him to give up before he even begins. Learning to improvise can be intimidating. My point was to keep it simple. I used a poor example as it inspired your correction.

I considered describing it as a variation on the iii-vi-ii-V-I progression, but figured even that was too much. When the OP referenced playing in "the key" (versus playing "chords") I assumed him to mean using only diatonic notes, so I didn't want to get into the weeds with him. I ended by recommending that he start with pentatonic and blues scales and simultaneously begin to learn theory because most people want to play right away, and need something simple and pragmatic begin with. You gave an excellent explanation, though I doubt he understands it. Such concepts are a long mental reach for someone who doesn't know the fundamental progression. You corrected my sloppiness, though, and provided a wonderful glimpse down into the rabbit hole I alluded to. I was just trying to be encouraging. But perhaps I've underestimated the OP and he understands perfectly, in which case I'm sorry for my sloppy and simplistic example.

[mark10450]

Hi all .

Well , a progression like E-7 / A7 / D-7 / G7 / C maj is not a II- /V7 of D followed by a II- / V7 of C . There is not a change of key here .
It is all in the key of C : E- is the III- chord , A7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the II- chord ( D-) , D- is the II- chord , G7 is the V7 chord, C is the I maj . The E- chords can also be analyzed as RELATED II- CHORD ( related to the A7 ) . The A7 chord will have allowable tensions that will reflect the quality of the resolution' chord ( D-) , for example a b13 ( F natural) .

As in the example mentioned above by Mr412 , Eb / G7 : if we are in the key of Eb , Eb is the I maj chord , G7 is the SECONDARY DOMINANT of the VI- chord ( C-) . So you can see something like Eb / G7/C- ecc . On this G7 chord you can play a B natural , of course , but also a Bb , because it is the #9 ( A#) , that is an allowable tension , being that the resolution' chord C- have a Bb in his scale . This G7 can also resolve to a Ab ( the IV chord in Eb) ; so you can see Eb / G7 / Ab / ecc .

Secondary dominant are chords that contains at least one tone that is not diatonic to the key of a tune, but they are built over a diatonic root .So , for example in the key of C maj , we have secondary dominant for the chords on scale degree II , III , IV , V , VI .
C / A7 / D- / B7 / E- / C7 / F / D7 / G7 / E7 / A- .
So , when you find a secondary dominant in a harmonic progression , you have the opportunity to play some non- diatonic ( to the main key) tones , and this will make your lines more interesting .

I think that if we improvise only with the diatonic tones of the key in which a song is based , for all the harmonic progression of a song , this can be a little "boring" ; and very difficult , at the same time..!

So , in my opinion , will be better to learn also how harmony works , if we want to optimize ours skills at improvisation . And , first of all , check at the jazz' master solos , learning to play it ( better by ear) , and then analyze them .


Regards
Giancarlo

You deftly corrected my simplistic (and perhaps poorly considered) example of moving ii-V progressions, but IMHO stand to overwhelm the OP with concepts of secondary dominants and such before he even knows what a ii-V-I is, and cause him to give up before he even begins. Learning to improvise can be intimidating. My point was to keep it simple. I used a poor example as it inspired your correction.

I considered describing it as a variation on the iii-vi-ii-V-I progression, but figured even that was too much. When the OP referenced playing in "the key" (versus playing "chords") I assumed him to mean using only diatonic notes, so I didn't want to get into the weeds with him. I ended by recommending that he start with pentatonic and blues scales and simultaneously begin to learn theory because most people want to play right away, and need something simple and pragmatic begin with. You gave an excellent explanation, though I doubt he understands it. Such concepts are a long mental reach for someone who doesn't know the fundamental progression. You corrected my sloppiness, though, and provided a wonderful glimpse down into the rabbit hole I alluded to. I was just trying to be encouraging. But perhaps I've underestimated the OP and he understands perfectly, in which case I'm sorry for my sloppy and simplistic example.

No No, I'm a simpleton in terms of music theory, I fully admit that. I'm trying to soak up as much information as I can via YouTube, books, etc. I whole heartedly appreciate everyone's input, I just had to do some Google searches to decypher what Giancarlo had written out a bit lol, but I am again so appreciative of all the help, even the help that leaves me feeling like I'm drinking through a firehose or with a headache.

[Richard3rd]

Don't forget the rhythms. I'm in a band with a guy who very accurately plays all the chords but loses track of beat one of each measure. He sort of meanders around.

Then there are the guys who wait for the rhythm section to declare the change and then go along with them. This is probably taught somewhere as it is so common. I find that method lacks cohesion and flow.

Much of jazz these days and for the last 50-60 years is chord based. The songs are really just a collection of chords without a real melody. Maybe you get a lick in there that is repeated but maybe not. Again, these are quite boring to me.

My favorite improviser has been Clark Terry. He would start with melodic variations but would also go with the changes in such a clear and coherent manner that you can totally follow his intent. Your solos should drive the band forward with drive and determination.

[BrassSection]

I play in a church band with nothing but a chord chart for reference. 99.9% of the time I stay in the written key and that works for me. Number one rule: Be aware of what your band mates are playing! Only competing against bass, electric, and acoustic guitars along with usually a keyboard. (And drums and vocals) They have the chords well covered, so I just “follow the key” and fill in with some harmony, some extra high notes, a few runs, some echo, or some counter melody. Rarely go solo, just there to add some brass highs and lows to what’s being played…and I do not play every single verse or chorus or bridge. What’s not played can be just as important as what is being played. Trumpet and tenor trombone for upbeat songs, when mellow is called for I switch to euph or French horn.

[Doug Elliott]

Well in a church band you need to stay away from any substitutions and altered chords... jazz being the devil's music.

[GGJazz]

Hello to everyone.
Hello Tbdana .

I agree 100% with you about the way of keep the thing as simple as possible.
Playing pentatonic scales over the chords' progression , as you suggest , is a good idea .

I talked about the secondary dominant because I found that if you suggest that in the progression E- /A7 /D-/ G7 , the first two chords are the II- /V7 of the key of D , and the next two chords are the II- / V7 of the key of C , one can think " so I have to play the D pentatonic over the first two chords , then the C pentatonic over the next two ? ". Trying to explain that all these chords are around the same key , could lead to a simple way to look at it , I guess .

To the OP : It seemed appropriate to me to talk about the secondary dominant because , once one have understand that there are diatonic chords built on scale' degree , the next step is to look at the secondary dominant , because they are the source of main dubts about harmony , for beginners students . Many times , when a secondary dominant happens , immediatly people start to think that a different new key is born . This can lead to confusion , to me .

You can play totally diatonic when a turnaround as above is played , of course .
Just listen at Charlie Parker "Yardbird Suite" solo ( first take) . On bars 7 and 8 , over E- A7 | D- G7 (key of C) , he played : | G ( quarter note) EFGCBA ( eight notes) | GFED (eight notes) E (quarter note) GD (eight notes) | . ( this is also the head of one of his compositions , "Cool Blues") .

We are listen to secondary dominant all day , they are pretty much in all songs . It is very rare to find a song completely built on diatonic scales' degree chords .

When you listen " When the saints go marchin' in" , in bar 10 there is the secondary dominant of the IV grade . In "Happy birthday to you" , in the 5th bars there is the same secondary dominant of IV grade .
The chords in bars 2 and 4 of "I' m getting sentimental over you " are secondary dominant ( in the key of D , C#7 secondary dominant of III- , B7 secondary dominant of II- ) ; etc , etc .

I am not a fan of music theory , because I learned all by ear first ; then I was looking to the harmony rules , etc . Anyway , I do not find that studying harmony is just a pure theoretical stuff ; if you listen the rules played on piano/ keyboards , you will understand almost everything , in my opinion .

Regards again
Giancarlo

[BrassSection]

Well in a church band you need to stay away from any substitutions and altered chords... jazz being the devil's music.

Now you tell me! Actually seems to be ok, pro trumpet player that joins us now and then often really breaks into jazz when we pair up on trumpets and play off of each other!

[BrassSection]

Fortunately I find it easy to play by ear, I had a hard time with music theory just switching from AM only vacuum tube car radios to AM/FM transistor radios!

[Mr412]

I play in a church band with nothing but a chord chart for reference. 99.9% of the time I stay in the written key and that works for me. Number one rule: Be aware of what your band mates are playing! Only competing against bass, electric, and acoustic guitars along with usually a keyboard. (And drums and vocals) They have the chords well covered, so I just “follow the key” and fill in with some harmony, some extra high notes, a few runs, some echo, or some counter melody. Rarely go solo, just there to add some brass highs and lows to what’s being played…and I do not play every single verse or chorus or bridge. What’s not played can be just as important as what is being played. Trumpet and tenor trombone for upbeat songs, when mellow is called for I switch to euph or French horn.

Daaaaaang! You're an inspiration. I figger you must be doing okay, b/c if you were laying eggs all over the place, you wouldn't be doing it for very long.

[BrassSection]

Been doing it since the 80s. Originally was in pretty much full orchestration group, 3 trumpets, 1 or 2 trombones, depending if I played trombone or the baritone I had at the time, 1 French horn, 4 various woodwinds, 1 violin, and of course an organ and a grand piano. We got a song list with titles, that’s all we got. Later advanced to song list with what key we were doing them in, but always be ready for an unplanned key change from one verse to the next. Amazing Grace was stepped up a key every one of the 4 verses. Leader was a band director, he took the time to make arrangements for us one week…Halfway thru the first song at practice he stopped us and said “Throw that music away and go back to what you were doing!”

As far as laying eggs, that’s why we have chickens down on the farm…I try to limit my output of them!