A moment to vent about Bachs

[harrisonreed]

Those look great. The finish on photo 3 is masterful.

[SwissTbone]

Just a few examples of the sort of work I do. I have rebuilt "many" (I have lost count, but it is easily in the triple digits including those done previously in Australia, then Greenhoe and M&W) Bach and Conn trombones for clients (as well as Edwards, Shires, Holton, Yamaha, you name it) I'm more than happy to discuss possible projects with people.

Matthew made a great 36C out of an old 36C. Probably the best medium bore I've ever played. With and without valve.

[WGWTR180]

I would like to echo what others have said. Matthew did a Holton 185 conversion for me that turned out amazingly well! His workmanship is tops and the instrument retained most, if not all, of the characteristic Holton sound that I love.

[ithinknot]

I would like to echo what others have said. Matthew did a Holton 185 conversion for me that turned out amazingly well! His workmanship is tops and the instrument retained most, if not all, of the characteristic Holton sound that I love.

Nice. Single/plug-in/dependent/?

[GabrielRice]

Ooh, Bill! I wanna try it!

[CalgaryTbone]

I would like to echo what others have said. Matthew did a Holton 185 conversion for me that turned out amazingly well! His workmanship is tops and the instrument retained most, if not all, of the characteristic Holton sound that I love.

Some pics would be nice!

JS

[Digidog]

Just a few examples of the sort of work I do. I have rebuilt "many" (I have lost count, but it is easily in the triple digits including those done previously in Australia, then Greenhoe and M&W) Bach and Conn trombones for clients (as well as Edwards, Shires, Holton, Yamaha, you name it) I'm more than happy to discuss possible projects with people.

Your horns are beautiful!

I was on the verge of buying a used M&W earlier this year, but when I had scrambled up the funds someone else snagged it before me.

Do you make Sterling Silver, or maybe Nickel Silver bells?

[hornbuilder]

Yes, both sterling and nickel silver bells are available.

[hornbuilder]

Two Holton conversions that I've done.
The client didn't want the bell refinished on the dependent bass.

[WGWTR180]

I would like to echo what others have said. Matthew did a Holton 185 conversion for me that turned out amazingly well! His workmanship is tops and the instrument retained most, if not all, of the characteristic Holton sound that I love.

Nice. Single/plug-in/dependent/?

Actually, as I already own 3 dependent models, I opted for an independent setup. It took me awhile to find a pipe that's suitable but now that I have that in order it's great!!!

[WGWTR180]

I would like to echo what others have said. Matthew did a Holton 185 conversion for me that turned out amazingly well! His workmanship is tops and the instrument retained most, if not all, of the characteristic Holton sound that I love.

Some pics would be nice!

JS

Will post soon BUT the 2nd bell section that Matt posted above looks like mine!!!

[harrisonreed]

Two Holton conversions that I've done.
The client didn't want the bell refinished on the dependent bass.

Matthew, are you still doing this kind of restoration work at M&W, or are you only focused on your line of original horns right now?

[hornbuilder]

I'm more than happy to do restoration/refurbish work in conjunction with M&W valve section conversions.

[harrisonreed]

I'm more than happy to do restoration/refurbish work in conjunction with M&W valve section conversions.

Would a King 3BF (.508) be a candidate for a valve replacement or is the bore too small? Sorry for all the questions, but those conversion pics are absolutely ridiculous, in a good way.

[bachMeuphere]

I haven’t seen a new Bach post Covid that I would sell. I work QC for a large music store in Texas as my day job. I will not go into details because I do not like kicking people while they are down, but I have gone through at least 50 different Bach 42s of different specs. I would not feel comfortable selling even one of them to a student.
When someone comes in to do a fitting with me, I don’t even show a Bach anymore.

What horn would you say moves the most? (for adult players, that is)

[Boneaphone]

I believe the best trombone Bach ever made is the 36B. I have a 1978 Corp 36B. It was good until I found the magic mp DE LT101.5/E/E4. Now it is fantastic. I also have a 1992 42BO that I had the standard valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations rotary valve. It made a world of difference. I have a 1983 16M that has a beautiful sound but also some slotting issues and could stand to be opened up a bit more. I have a 32H leadpipe on order from Brass Ark. When it arrives it will be installed along with the 3B slide crook that is sitting on my shelf. I also have an 891Z that has played great from day 1 - No mods required.

[Posaunus]

I believe the best trombone Bach ever made is the 36B.

36B (vintage ~1976) is the only Bach trombone I've felt comfortable with. Nice balanced instrument.

[Tomnormann]

I wish I could give you sympathy, but Bach is terrible. There has only been one I've ever tried that I would want to play in any performance. That one single horn, out of tens of others I've tried, was beautiful!

The stories of people "finding the one" are kind of humorous because for the prices Bach is charging you can go to Edwards or Shires (or one of their dealers) and walk out with a Bach style horn that plays great and have no issues. Or even buy one sight unseen. You can't do that with Bach. Bach is charging $5500 for low quality builds.

There are people who sound very great on Bach, but some are big names from the past who claim they tried 10+ bells and multiple slides to create their perfect Bach. Sorry but that's not "playing on Bach", that's building your own horn by sifting through junk. Or people who mate Mt Vernon bells to Shires or Edwards setups -- again, that's just underlining how bad the Bach build quality is.

I can sympathize that you like the Bach sound, and you like the design concept. There is absolutely something special there. But in order to "fix" Bach, you need to vote with your wallet. I personally would not give them any money for what they are producing. They will continue to produce broken, low quality builds as long as people keep buying them.

Well, I bought my new centennial Bach for less than 4000 usd in 2021. I picked the best playing combination of two/three gold bell sections and five lightweight slides. There was some alignment issues with the slide I discovered later that was fixed by a good tech during a service I would have done anyway. Now I really can't complain. Orchestral trombonists playing Thein, M&W, Greenhoe, early Edwards and early Shires are all impressed when trying it. I even got an offer to trade it for one of this horns. In other words, why paying usd 2000 more for a boutique made horn when you can fix any alignment issues for next to nothing? Given that you prefer the Bach sound, off course.

[LowBrassJunkie]

Its not just an issue with the trombones. Strad trumpets and Conn horns have pitiful QC.

[Posaunus]

All this makes me very sad, and is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the deterioration of the American work ethic, and perhaps American culture at large. Our brass instruments were once (at least among) the best in the world. Now it's only a few manufacturers who can proudly raise their banners.

I have a small collection of "vintage" trombones which I will happily play until I can't. They have personality, were well-made, are easy-to-maintain, and (to my ears) sound great. As they say, they don't make 'em like they used to!

[JoeAumann]

I believe the best trombone Bach ever made is the 36B.

You're close... The straight 36 is even better. And definitely the best Bach trombone ever made.

[Posaunus]

I believe the best trombone Bach ever made is the 36B.

You're close... The straight 36 is even better. And definitely the best Bach trombone ever made.

I haven't played a straight 36, but I had a 1976 36B for a while (replaced with a Conn 79H) and really liked it.
The 36B was definitely the best Bach trombone that I've played! Good sound, good slide, good valve, trouble-free.

[sf105]

All this makes me very sad, and is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the deterioration of the American work ethic, and perhaps American culture at large. Our brass instruments were once (at least among) the best in the world. Now it's only a few manufacturers who can proudly raise their banners.

I would rather say the American corporate ethic. Once a factory gets big enough and everyone's on piecework, well you get what you pay for. It was Macmillan that trashed Conn when they moved out of Elkhart.

Here we had Boosey and Hawkes, which prospered in the closed market of the British Empire and military band contracts, and collapsed as soon as there was real competition.

[afugate]

All this makes me very sad, and is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the deterioration of the American work ethic, and perhaps American culture at large. Our brass instruments were once (at least among) the best in the world. Now it's only a few manufacturers who can proudly raise their banners.

I would rather say the American corporate ethic. Once a factory gets big enough and everyone's on piecework, well you get what you pay for. It was Macmillan that trashed Conn when they moved out of Elkhart.

Here we had Boosey and Hawkes, which prospered in the closed market of the British Empire and military band contracts, and collapsed as soon as there was real competition.

From craftsmen... to corporations. The focus always changes. It has to. The leadership of a corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders.

--Andy in OKC

[DCIsky]

All this makes me very sad, and is perhaps an unfortunate consequence of the deterioration of the American work ethic, and perhaps American culture at large. Our brass instruments were once (at least among) the best in the world. Now it's only a few manufacturers who can proudly raise their banners.

I have a small collection of "vintage" trombones which I will happily play until I can't. They have personality, were well-made, are easy-to-maintain, and (to my ears) sound great. As they say, they don't make 'em like they used to!

I wish it was a work ethic thing, but it’s the realities of working a factory job in the US these days. Hard to bring perfectionist standards to your workplace when you have no chance for upward mobility in the company and your paychecks barely cover your costs of living. To be honest,

It’s unfortunately not just C-S. My brand-new Shires valve section has specks of corrosion on the valve knuckles. But the new Bachs are a case of their own.

[sf105]

From craftsmen... to corporations. The focus always changes. It has to. The leadership of a corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders.

--Andy in OKC

They also have a responsibility for not driving the company into the ground because they haven't understood their market. Yamaha, for example, don't seem to suffer from the same problems.

At least the consequences aren't as serious as Boeing.

S

[harrisonreed]

I would rather say the American corporate ethic. Once a factory gets big enough and everyone's on piecework, well you get what you pay for. It was Macmillan that trashed Conn when they moved out of Elkhart.

Here we had Boosey and Hawkes, which prospered in the closed market of the British Empire and military band contracts, and collapsed as soon as there was real competition.

From craftsmen... to corporations. The focus always changes. It has to. The leadership of a corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders.

--Andy in OKC

FWIW, Conn-Selmer is owned by Paulson and Co, a closed hedge fund. It doesn't answer to shareholders in the traditional sense, and from what I can tell a lot of what it does involves complex bets, including shorting investments, derivatives, and formerly subprime mortgages. I don't think the investors could care less about how C-S runs as a company, because they can likely bet against it as it fails.

[Posaunus]

The leadership of a corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders.
--Andy in OKC

Is that really true? (Just because Milton Friedman said so?)
Long-term or short-term?
Is greed good?
Is profit the only reason to invest in a corporation?

Is profit maximization a corporation's only responsibility?
What about their employees?
Their customers?
Their community?

Management / corporate ethic decline is as significant as is their employees'.

[Dennis]

The leadership of a corporation has a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders.
--Andy in OKC

Is that really true? (Just because Milton Friedman said so?)
Long-term or short-term?
Is greed good?
Is profit the only reason to invest in a corporation?

Is profit maximization a corporation's only responsibility?
What about their employees?
Their customers?
Their community?

Management / corporate ethic decline is as significant as is their employees'.

Uncle Milty was wrong about a lot of things, and this is one of them. To see that Friedman was wrong, one need only consider not-for-profit corporations: they exist and they can make money, but they can't return those profits to shareholders as dividends or increased share prices.

Corporations get the benefit of a corporate persona and shield individual investors from liability, and they do that at the sufferance of the society that hosts the corporation. Part of that sufferance rightly ought to be an insistence that the corporate charter recognizes the rights and interests of all stakeholders: shareholders, employees, customers, and society writ large.

As has been said in other contexts, I'll consider accepting capital punishment for humans when the courts apply capital punishment to corporations.

[Mikebmiller]

My first large bore horn was a Bach 42 Corp that my uncle bought for me used in 1974 for $275. I played it until the mid 90s, when somebone on the old forum put up an Edwards for sale and I ended up switching. But that Bach was a great horn. I got a straight 36 in the early 90's and played it until a few years ago when I wanted something smaller for jazz band. That one played well but the lacquer wasn't looking too good towards the end. And I had a 36B a few years ago for a couple of years that I ended up selling when I got my Rath. It was a very nice horn. So I have have good experiences with Bachs. The one thing I really hate about the newer open wrap designs is that the F attachment sticks out about 6" past the tuning slide, which is both ugly and inconvenient in cramped quarters. For now, I am very happy with the Rath I bought in 2016. The lacquer still looks brand new and the slide is fantastic. And when you email their support with a question, the owner of the company is often the one responding.