Questions About Serpent Part (Mendelssohn "Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage")

[JohnL]

Our orchestra has programmed Mendelssohn's Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage for our next concert. I'm looking at the score, and there's a part for "serpente e contrafagotto".

I know contrabassoon plays an octave below the written part, but what about serpent? I did some Googling and I don't see any mention of serpent being a transposing instrument, so would the part normally be played in octaves?

[Posaunus]

This is your chance, John. Acquire a serpent (borrowed from a museum?), take a few on-line lessons from (noted serpentologist) Doug Yeo, and you can slither your way through the March concert and achieve great notoriety.

[I believe serpent plays in the written octave. "The majority of surviving specimens in museums and private collections were built in 8′ C, thus having a total tubing length of about 8 feet (2.4 m). "]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(instrument)

[JohnL]

This is your chance, John. Acquire a serpent (borrowed from a museum?), take a few on-line lessons from (noted serpentologist) Doug Yeo, and you can slither your way through the March concert and achieve great notoriety.

More likely infamy. Serpent is wicked hard to play well.

[Posaunus]

This is your chance, John. Acquire a serpent (borrowed from a museum?), take a few on-line lessons from (noted serpentologist) Doug Yeo, and you can slither your way through the March concert and achieve great notoriety.

More likely infamy. Serpent is wicked hard to play well.

I didn't say you had to play well to be notorious!

[LeTromboniste]

Serpent 8', Contrabassoon 16', much in the same way that a lot of repertoire has the cellos and double basses playing in octaves off the same material.

The "serpent" in this case is very unlikely to be a curved church serpent as Doug Yeo is seen playing in the link above. The serpents used in orchestras at that time were usually upright ("bassoon-formed"), and often with a brass bell, so more something like a bass horn/cimbasso/basson russe (the British made those entirely out of brass, but in the continent they still had wooden bodies). Likely that those parts would have later been played on ophicleide (even though the parts Mendelssohn actually wrote for the ophicleide are very different and have a different role altogether).



As for the role of this part and what instrument is best in a modern orchestra: together the serpent and contra typically act as the bass of the woodwind choir (as one very clear example, look at Paulus, where right from the start the serpent plays the bassline of a woodwind chorale alone with the contra – the 2nd bassoon is playing harmony. During the entire piece you always play with the bassons and never ever play with the trombones except of course when everyone is playing. It's very obvious playing that part what your role is, and it's definitely completely separate from the brass). In some cases you might rather conceive the part as an added colour to the general bassline, but I don't think there's a single case in Mendelssohn where the serpent is the bass of the brass section, unlike with his writing for ophicleide. So the modern practice of playing those serpent parts on big bass tuba sitting with the trombones is completely absurd.

With modern instruments the option that best captures the effect and fulfills the role of the part is playing it on euphonium, sitting with the contrabassoon as part of the bassoon section (and if not, then near the cellos and basses). If done without contra, then I would still use a euphonium or if you really must, maybe a small F tuba, and still mostly play at the written pitch while occasionally dropping things down an octave, carefully looking at the score to select what to play down (most importantly, playing the lower octave if the 2nd bassoon otherwise crosses below the bassline). If everything is played down an octave, you often leave a big gap in the bassoon voicing.



Some completely non-Mendelssohn-related but beautiful serpent stuff:

[AtomicClock]

Some completely non-Mendelssohn-related but beautiful serpent stuff

Wow! I didn't know a serpent could sound like that.

[Kbiggs]

With modern instruments the option that best captures the effect and fulfills the role of the part is playing it on euphonium, sitting with the contrabassoon as part of the bassoon section (and if not, then near the cellos and basses). If done without contra, then I would still use a euphonium or if you really must, maybe a small F tuba, and still mostly play at the written pitch while occasionally dropping things down an octave, carefully looking at the score to select what to play down (most importantly, playing the lower octave if the 2nd bassoon otherwise crosses below the bassline). If everything is played down an octave, you often leave a big gap in the bassoon voicing.

I’m wondering whether a British baritone, or a German baritone horn or tenor horn (NOT an American “baritone”) might also work in this role?

[LeTromboniste]

With modern instruments the option that best captures the effect and fulfills the role of the part is playing it on euphonium, sitting with the contrabassoon as part of the bassoon section (and if not, then near the cellos and basses). If done without contra, then I would still use a euphonium or if you really must, maybe a small F tuba, and still mostly play at the written pitch while occasionally dropping things down an octave, carefully looking at the score to select what to play down (most importantly, playing the lower octave if the 2nd bassoon otherwise crosses below the bassline). If everything is played down an octave, you often leave a big gap in the bassoon voicing.

I’m wondering whether a British baritone, or a German baritone horn or tenor horn (NOT an American “baritone”) might also work in this role?

Those serpent parts do go down to low C as is (without playing the lower octave), so you need four valves for sure and something that can sound bassy enough, but yes, I think any kind of Bb conical instrument that has the range, and sound-wise is able to support the bassons without spreading too wide is a candidate.

[Posaunus]

Wonderful, informed commentary, Maximilien.
As usual, you are educating those of us unfamiliar with musical practices before ~1850. We are grateful.
I guess JohnL will have to dig a euphonium out of his closet for the Mendelssohn concert in March.
.

[LeTromboniste]

Comparing the upright serpent/cimbasso picture I posted above with that of a contrabassoon of the same period makes the seemingly surprising pairing of the "brasswind" serpent with the woodwind contrabassoon at the bottom of the bassoon section really quite obvious and logical:

[JohnL]

Those serpent parts do go down to low C as is (without playing the lower octave)

The part on the Mendelssohn goes from E2 up to E4 as written. Kinda rangy for an amateur tubist on a BBb or CC, but very manageable on a four-valve euphonium.

[ghmerrill]

... very manageable on a four-valve euphonium.

But would sound better on an Eb or F tuba. Although I'm not sure what "better" means in this context -- e.g., if it means "closer to the period instrument sound." However, I suspect it would still sound better on a small tuba (not counting the euph as one of those for this purpose).

[BGuttman]

When the Nashua (NH) Symphony did the Mendelssohn "Midsummer Night's Dream" overture, Velvet Brown played the Ophicleide part on a small Eb tuba and it blended quite well. In that piece the Ophicleide performed the same function as the Serpent part in your piece.

[Posaunus]

I expect that playing even a small tuba (or other modern conical brass instrument), the player would have to play relatively softly to more closely mimic the limited-volume sound of a serpent (or ophicleide).

[JohnL]

It's an amateur orchestra and our regular tuba player's toolkit doesn't include an Eb or F tuba, so that's off the table.

Ultimately, it'll be up to the conductor; I'm just looking at options to present to him.

[ghmerrill]

The part on the Mendelssohn goes from E2 up to E4 as written. Kinda rangy for an amateur tubist on a BBb or CC, but very manageable on a four-valve euphonium.

Okay ... The E4 is reasonably within range on a BBb tuba, but I concede that most of the community tubists I've sat beside in a tuba section won't go there. In my experience most of my section mates (when I play tuba) are unwilling to venture above F or G at the top of the staff, and unhappy about venturing further than the Bb or maybe a couple of steps further below the staff. This unfortunately leaves them sitting out a variety of passages in commonly played British pieces, but often there's someone who can cover for them.

So I guess euph is the choice -- unless you might want to try it on (muted?) bass trombone? Your music critics might rave about the artistic novelty.

[LeTromboniste]

It's an amateur orchestra and our regular tuba player's toolkit doesn't include an Eb or F tuba, so that's off the table.

Ultimately, it'll be up to the conductor; I'm just looking at options to present to him.

If you can convince the conductor to have you play it on euphonium, jump on that, you're lucky! Those are extremely fun parts to play and such a different experience than what we usually play in orchestra!

I expect that playing even a small tuba (or other modern conical brass instrument), the player would have to play relatively softly to more closely mimic the limited-volume sound of a serpent (or ophicleide).

An ophicleide can be quite loud except on a couple bad notes. Not a big volume difference with a baritone/euphonium type instrument, and a very similar type of projection. The modern bassoons and contra are also louder than their historic counterparts, so being louder than a serpent should not be a huge concern in my opinion. But yeah, you'd have to be somewhat careful.

... very manageable on a four-valve euphonium.

But would sound better on an Eb or F tuba. Although I'm not sure what "better" means in this context -- e.g., if it means "closer to the period instrument sound." However, I suspect it would still sound better on a small tuba (not counting the euph as one of those for this purpose).

With a very small and compact F/Eb, yes, maybe. But most tubas (even Fs and Ebs) used today sound too wide for these parts and stick out like a a sore thumb between the 2nd basson and contra, and get the wrong balance between the tuba and contra, both in terms of volume and of width of sound and projection. At best it makes the whole woodwind section much too bottom-heavy, at worst the tuba just sounds completely separate from them. Plus there's a lot of high-register playing (some of those parts go up to high G's and A's) where the tuba just tends to sound strained and saturated while the euphonium so easily stays light and sings. My concern with using a tuba on those parts is not so much about imitating the sound of period instrument – if nobody else in the orchestra does it, who cares – or the technically possible ranges of instruments, and more about balance and getting a sound that fits the role of the part.

My opinion based on active experience playing this repertoire on modern trombone, on historical trombone with someone playing serpent or ophicleide, and also on ophicleide myself, professionally, is that a bass tuba usually should work perfectly well for Mendelssohn's actual ophicleide parts, where the register is lower and the role is as bass reinforcement to the brass section, to give width and power to the bass line. But for his English bass horn (Midsummer Night's Dream) and serpent parts, where you are essentially a bassoon and not even the lowest of the section, the tuba is simply not adapted to properly fill that very specific role. If one wants to keep the unique colour combination of one brass instrument in the middle of the bassoon section, euphonium and similar instruments can work. Otherwise, I honestly think it would be a better idea to replace it with a 3rd bassoon than with a tuba in most cases.

[AtomicClock]

If you can convince the conductor to have you play it on euphonium, jump on that, you're lucky!

What's the doubling fee on a free gig? 30%?

[ghmerrill]

What's the doubling fee on a free gig? 30%?

Probably more for bassoon.

[Kbiggs]

I’m wondering whether a British baritone, or a German baritone horn or tenor horn (NOT an American “baritone”) might also work in this role?

Those serpent parts do go down to low C as is (without playing the lower octave), so you need four valves for sure and something that can sound bassy enough, but yes, I think any kind of Bb conical instrument that has the range, and sound-wise is able to support the bassons without spreading too wide is a candidate.

Sounds like a great opportunity for a tenor tuba!

[ghmerrill]

Sounds like a great opportunity for a tenor tuba!

So nowadays that would be a large-ish bore non-compensating upright bell euphonium? Or "Kaiser baryton"? :->

[BGuttman]

Sounds like a great opportunity for a tenor tuba!

So nowadays that would be a large-ish bore non-compensating upright bell euphonium? Or "Kaiser baryton"? :->

A large bore compensating Euphonium would be better. The low C would then be in tune without too much fuss. I've played tenor tuba parts on my Conn 19I (King 2280 with a different label) which is a non-compensated 4 valve (up) large bore instrument. Problem is, when you get into the register below the bass staff figuring out the fingerings for the notes gets a bit complicated.

[ghmerrill]

A large bore compensating Euphonium would be better. The low C would then be in tune without too much fuss. I've played tenor tuba parts on my Conn 19I (King 2280 with a different label) which is a non-compensated 4 valve (up) large bore instrument.

I'm not questioning what a "tenor tuba part" may be, but what a tenor tuba is (or was meant by the previous comment).

Problem is, when you get into the register below the bass staff figuring out the fingerings for the notes gets a bit complicated.

Huh? If you're a tuba player, you just figure that out pretty quick -- pulling slides as necessary. And I'm not sure I've ever seen anything referred to as a "tenor tuba" part that goes below the staff in orchestral or band music. That's not what's included in a "tenor tuba part".

I think that what most tuba players think of -- as an instrument rather than a part -- when "tenor tuba" is mentioned is something along the lines of the Cerveny CEP 533-4 (https://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/products/ro ... /cep-533-4). Donald Stauffer doesn't mention a tenor tuba anywhere in the 280 pages of his classic "A Treatise on the Tuba." And in the classic "Bydlo" solo, the composer expected it to be played by a small "French tuba" in C.

So again, the large bore euph (compensating or not) would be the way to go.

[2bobone]

I think that we can all agree that it is difficult to choose a modern instrument to substitute for an antiquated one when programming a piece originally orchestrated for the latter. For the most part, we can never truly equivocate the intentions of the composer, nor the sound of the instrument.
I was involved in efforts by The Smithsonian Institution to use instruments from their sizeable collection to perform public concerts. I played everything from recorders to Saxhorns and even ophicleide in those concerts. From the "Smithsonian Tower Band" to the "Civil War Band" to the "Ballroom Ensemble", it was a great experience !
It must be considered that no musician can afford to own, maintain and perform exclusively on these interesting instruments and still expect to eat a nutritious meal every day. Very few opportunities exist to be able to do so.
I was once contacted by The Baltimore Symphony Orchestra to play several performances of Mendelssohn's "Mid-Summer's Night Dream" Overture as the ophicleide player [yes, I actually owned one]. I was excited by the prospect until I learned the details of the engagement from their personnel manager [name withheld due to possible embarrassment]. I was expected to drive 100 miles round-trip, play a rehearsal at my own expense and if the difference [ between the usually assigned tuba to play the part] was preferable to Maestro Commissiona I would be offered the "gig" at scale payment. Wow ! What a great deal ! I politely turned down the offer. I assume they went with the tuba ------ ?
I only state the foregoing to alert others to similar "once in a lifetime" offers.
I truly admire those who have dedicated themselves to historical performance. Anyone here who has availed themselves of the performances of "Le Tromboniste" can hear how wonderful these instruments can sound with the dedication necessary to make it happen. I'm sure it is not an easy endeavor. But, for the rest of us -----------.
So, that's my 2 cents ! I'm ready to be pilloried !!

[Posaunus]

I was expected to drive 100 miles round-trip, play a rehearsal at my own expense and if the difference [between the usually assigned tuba to play the part] was preferable to Maestro Commissiona I would be offered the "gig" at scale payment. Wow ! What a great deal ! I politely turned down the offer.

I only state the foregoing to alert others to similar "once in a lifetime" offers.

But Bob - you might have been awarded a solo bow!

Gotta agree with you on this one - though (now as an amateur) if I had the instrument and could play the part well, I might give it a go, just for the experience. (Certainly not the $$.)

By the way, I really enjoyed the Smithsonian concerts and recordings. Thanks!

[ghmerrill]

Just for grins ... Here's a good example of perhaps the most famous "tenor tuba part" being played on a ... well ... "tenor tuba".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9qqy08_b3M

It's claimed to be an Alexander 151 "tenor tuba" -- but I'm skeptical. In fact it's identical in appearance in size, valve keys (old clockwork), and dimensions and configuration to a 1965 Amati "oval euphonium" hanging on my wall. And more recent Alexander "tenor tuba" examples look like this:

https://hornguys.com/products/alexander ... ng-trigger

They also sound a lot different (more tuba-like or euph-like). The oval one sounds like a euphonium wanting to be a trombone -- and takes a European medium size shank.

But it's interesting to hear it's rather distinctive sound.

[JohnL]

Uh oh, now we've wandered into the tenor tuba crossfire. Keep you heads down.

[ghmerrill]

It's easy to avoid any danger if you just eliminate the "tenor tuba" term from your vocabulary. And nothing meaningful is lost. (Sorry -- had to add that. )

[Kbiggs]

For the nay-sayers, kill-joys, and misanthropic sourpusses:

Here’s a write-up on the tenor tuba. Note how different it is to a euphonium.

https://hornguys.com/collections/tenor- ... ng-trigger

If you’ve never heard one played, and played well, then you’re missing something exciting. It’s a unique sound. I had the pleasure to sit next to the student of a college prof who loaned his tenor tuba to the student. The sound fits perfectly in a modern orchestra playing Mendelssohn’s Midsummer Night’s Dream.

If a good tuba player can play a nice in-tune Db-1 on a CC tuba, then…

[BGuttman]

I should remind everybody that this is an amateur ensemble and the chance of finding somebody who will play any of these exotic horns for free is probably zero. Also, there probably won't be period woodwinds either.

The most likely choices are a euphonium or a [bass] tuba (Eb or F). If the regular tuba player can hit all the notes on his BBb, that's probably what is going to happen. Forget about "period correct".

When we played Symphony Fantastique, I wound up playing 2nd Tuba on my F (regular tuba insisted on 1st). Our regular tuba couldn't play the high notes (part goes up to a G 3 lines above the bass staff) so I just covered the notes for him. This is what happens with amateur orchestras.

[ghmerrill]

It’s a unique sound.

Horn Guys: " ... he sounded just like Oystein Baadsvik would on an Eb tuba."

[ghmerrill]

When we played Symphony Fantastique, I wound up playing 2nd Tuba on my F (regular tuba insisted on 1st). Our regular tuba couldn't play the high notes (part goes up to a G 3 lines above the bass staff) so I just covered the notes for him. This is what happens with amateur orchestras.

Even for professionals, playing that high on a large bore BBb tends to sound really sucky. Nature of the instrument.