Lower lip progressively rolling in when articulating

[AnthonyGTrombone]

I've had a number of embouchure problems in the last couple of years that have killed my confidence and consistency.
As soon as I feel like I've "fixed" one problem, another pops up.

The obvious answer to my questions is to get a lesson with Doug.
I've had a couple thus far, and this specific issue wasn't present at the time.
My calendar and finances dictate I have to wait a little bit before I can take another lesson.
I thought in the meanwhile I would post here for the hivemind.

Essentially what's happening is when playing short repeated notes like staccato eighth notes (especially if they're syncopated), my lower lip progressively rolls in to the point it's fully stretched into my mouth.

This happens even if I don't tongue the notes.
Staccato air attacks causes the same effect.

When I begin playing a note, the airstream moves my upper lip forward and my lower lip backwards into my mouth.
One attack cause pretty minimal motion, but over the course of 10 attacks or so, my lower lip rolls all the way back over my teeth.

Repeatedly starting and stopping the airstream, like in syncopated staccato notes, cause my lower lip to move further back overtime.
Connected eighth notes don't cause the problem as the air stream is connected.

Willing it into place just causes it to move back forth as I'm fighting the mechanics of whatever is going on.

A strong pucker helps a little bit but is very difficult for me to play consistently with.

Some other issues I've been fighting, in case anyone thinks they're related are;
Right cheek engagement when ascending. My cheek would raise high enough to partially close my eye.
Active practice has mitigated this, though it creeps back when I'm not playing well.

Explosive Air leakage from right side (not consistent, very occasionally a big puff comes out and totally kills whatever note I went to play) Possibly due to cheek, but also could poor mouthpiece pressure coordination.

A blister on my lower lip that popped and bled some months ago. It hasn't come back but there's a purple spot in its place.


If I've left out anything important, ask away.

I'll have a lesson with Doug in a week or two and see what he says.

[Doug Elliott]

I can check you sooner than that, no charge.

Not tomorrow, I have cataract surgery in the morning.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

I can check you sooner than that, no charge.

Not tomorrow, I have cataract surgery in the morning.

That's very generous of you Doug.
Your time is very valuable and I appreciate it.

I'll PM you.

I'm still happy to hear anyone's thoughts on the matter, post away and speculate.

[harrisonreed]

I can check you sooner than that, no charge.

Not tomorrow, I have cataract surgery in the morning.

Good luck with the surgery Doug.

[Joebone]

Ditto on the surgery!

[BGuttman]

As someone who endured cataract surgery in both eyes and made it to the other side safely, the surgery is almost an anti-climax to the dread before. Good luck, and make sure to do your drops.

[Doug Elliott]

The other eye was done in September.

[imsevimse]

I've had a number of embouchure problems in the last couple of years that have killed my confidence and consistency.
....
Connected eighth notes don't cause the problem as the air stream is connected.

I think this is part of your problem and also the solution.
Your airstream shall be connected at all times while playing, also between "slower" notes. Since you say you are having multiple emboushure problems it's difficult to help, but I got a picture when I read your post that you have movements in your emboushure and that these causes your bottom lip to fold in as you play notes in a row that's "slower" than eight notes. You say you connect the air better while playing eight notes?
This tells me you don't connect the air the same when you play "slower" like quarter notes. The solution here could be you should keep blowing through the quarter notes the same as the eight notes. Make sure the air is "ON" through the phrase.
1.First blow a whole note F or Bb on first position. Blow warm air through the horn for full value and slow tempo, make sure you have a good sound.
2. Next blow four quarternotes the same, on same note. The airstream should be same. Difference is only the gentle strikes with your tongue, fast but gentle. The tounge should not be heard, only divide that whole note into four beautiful quarter notes. Do not think separated, think connected since the air should be like that whole note. Check with mirror so you hold your lips still while you do this.
3. Repeat the pattern 1 and 2 on every note in the scale as long as it is in a comfortable register for you. Don't forget to check your mouth with a mirror while you do this. You could use a cromatic scale or any scale.

That burst you talk about tells me you are not firm in your "mouth corners". You need to control those or else you will not be able to control the aparture.

You do need lessons with a good teacher to help you with the problems you describe.

/Tom

[AnthonyGTrombone]

I've had a number of embouchure problems in the last couple of years that have killed my confidence and consistency.
....
Connected eighth notes don't cause the problem as the air stream is connected.

This tells me you don't connect the air the same when you play "slower" like quarter notes. The solution here could be you should keep blowing through the quarter notes the same as the eight notes. Make sure the air is "ON" through the phrase.

That burst you talk about tells me you are not firm in your "mouth corners". You need to control those or else you will not be able to control the aparture.

/Tom

Hi Tom, thanks for your comment.

Let me try and clear up what's going on.

On any given entrance, my air stream causes my upper lip to move forward and my lower lip to move backwards. Like 2 fingers snapping?

Slower than eighth notes is fine, and steady and not stacatto eighth notes are fine. If I'm playing steady eighth notes the air stream is connected so only one motion happens. Quarter notes and the like are fine. Even if there are rests, my embouchure has enough time to reset.

Staccato eighth are the challenge.
There has to be space between the notes, so unless I tongue stop everything, the air stream has to stop briefly.
It's staccato syncopated eighth notes that are the worst. Think eighth notes upbeats, or staccato eighth notes with eighth rests.
My embiuchure doesn't have time to come back from the initial motion so it all compounds.

This never happened before, and wasn't even the case maybe 3 weeks ago.

As for the air leakage, you could be right, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix this.
It feels as though everything is engaged as normal and suddenly a puff of air will twitch everything loose.
I had issues with my right cheek pulling my right corner, and the air leaks always happen to my right. The air leaks have lessened recently, I imagine as a result of me working to disengage my right cheek. I'm unsure if this is the "only" cause to my air leaks or if anything else is related.
I wouldn't be surprised if this weird motion is causing my lower lip to lose contact with the mouthpiece as well.

[EriKon]

To me this all sounds more like a problem with the tongue not doing what it should, being in the wrong position or something like that and you're trying to compensate with the embouchure. But of course without seeing and hearing the issues it's hard to tell. And very likely it's a mixture of different problems or a combination of tongue and mouth corners.

And I'm sure Doug will find the cause and give you the best advice on that, especially with already knowing your playing.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

To me this all sounds more like a problem with the tongue not doing what it should, being in the wrong position or something like that and you're trying to compensate with the embouchure. But of course without seeing and hearing the issues it's hard to tell. And very likely it's a mixture of different problems or a combination of tongue and mouth corners.

And I'm sure Doug will find the cause and give you the best advice on that, especially with already knowing your playing.

Very possible!

I've noticed my tongue migrating more towards my teeth recently, or even in between my teeth. Normally I tongue further back, behind my teeth or ever further.
Could very well be related, though just moving the tongue only slightly helps currently.

[imsevimse]

This tells me you don't connect the air the same when you play "slower" like quarter notes. The solution here could be you should keep blowing through the quarter notes the same as the eight notes. Make sure the air is "ON" through the phrase.

That burst you talk about tells me you are not firm in your "mouth corners". You need to control those or else you will not be able to control the aparture.

/Tom

Hi Tom, thanks for your comment.

Let me try and clear up what's going on.

On any given entrance, my air stream causes my upper lip to move forward and my lower lip to move backwards. Like 2 fingers snapping?

Slower than eighth notes is fine, and steady and not stacatto eighth notes are fine. If I'm playing steady eighth notes the air stream is connected so only one motion happens. Quarter notes and the like are fine. Even if there are rests, my embouchure has enough time to reset.

Staccato eighth are the challenge.
There has to be space between the notes, so unless I tongue stop everything, the air stream has to stop briefly.
It's staccato syncopated eighth notes that are the worst. Think eighth notes upbeats, or staccato eighth notes with eighth rests.
My embiuchure doesn't have time to come back from the initial motion so it all compounds.

This never happened before, and wasn't even the case maybe 3 weeks ago.

In my book you do not need to reset after staccatto. There shouldn't be anything to reset. The lips should be as if you blow a long note. So you have motions you can't control that is connected to something you do when you play staccato?

You say you have tried to play stacacatos without use of the tounge and it didn't help. I understand it could be difficult to do that fast and repeatadly, but you could do a bar in a comfortable slow tempo with four short staccattos on downbeat with rest in between without use of the tounge. If the problem is connected to the tounge movement then you need to practice short notes without the tounge to begin with. Often we expect things to do immideate change, but reality isn't always that easy. You need to practice a lot and work to keep that bottom lip in place. Goal is to keep the lower lip in place now without tounge and later when you have success with that first step you add the tounge. Make sure your throat is open as if you were to play a whole note. A common error is also to close the throat between notes to make them short, make sure you just stop the air and stay open. Do not stop the air with the tounge, just not blow air (pause the air but don't loose connection to the airstream, it's still ready). You did not mention this as a problem but I point this anyway because it is a common problem. No close of glottis.

Can you do that without the motion in your bottom lip? You could try this if it helps. You could also do a slight change of position of the mouthpiece. The change of position is just to get a feeling of "different".

You also said "A strong pucker helps a little bit" but you find it hard to play like that. It may still be what you need to do to fix this. That posture might need "new" muscles and therefore you practice.

To do small changes is what has helped me most in my own playing. I am experimental. I seek the feeling of "different", that's when I may learn something. Small changes that could be in the mouthpiece position or where to aim in the mouthpiece. As an example l may aim the airstream sligt to left or maybe to the right in certain registers and see if it helps. If it does help my plaing I might make notes and keep it. Another thing that has helped me is to frequently change horn and sometimes also mouthpiece to learn to be independant of both horn and mouthpiece. It's not that I recommend you to do that. I started to do this when I started to collect trombones in 2013 which means I had played almost 40 years before I began to do that, but it is examples of how I experiment. I need the feeling of "different" to open my mind to learn new things.

The feeling of "different" is what has speed up my own development. I'm sure people who know me has noticed the change. I have played since 1975 and have had five different teachers. The best teacher was the one who encouraged me to to try new things. He made suggestions but it was my choice to try that or something else if the first thing didn't work. This was all good but the thing that really made a difference was when I started to make my own etudes and choose my own path. The last 15 years I've done a lot of experiments and especially the feel that something is "different" has been important to me to learn more efficiently because it has helped to opend my mind.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

Back from my cataract surgery and a long nap all day...

Actually now that I think about it more, I remember having a similar problem sometimes, in high school and college.
It took me about two years to sort out several changes to fix a variety of small issues and get completely comfortable. Now that I'm teaching, with a clear understanding of things (several decades later), I can fix problems a lot faster than that. It's a combination of chop and jaw position, tongue position(s) both when articulating and when not articulating, and synchronization of air with everything else. Maybe seems complicated but it's really not.

[AnthonyGTrombone]

Back from my cataract surgery and a long nap all day...

Actually now that I think about it more, I remember having a similar problem sometimes, in high school and college.
It took me about two years to sort out several changes to fix a variety of small issues and get completely comfortable. Now that I'm teaching, with a clear understanding of things (several decades later), I can fix problems a lot faster than that. It's a combination of chop and jaw position, tongue position(s) both when articulating and when not articulating, and synchronization of air with everything else. Maybe seems complicated but it's really not.

Glad to hear it sounds like things went well surgery wise.
Get as much rest as you need

I'm also happy to hear those factors are what I think are wrong too. I just can't seem to find the exact placement of these factors.
I'm sure you'll be able to help!

[imsevimse]

Back from my cataract surgery and a long nap all day...

Actually now that I think about it more, I remember having a similar problem sometimes, in high school and college.
It took me about two years to sort out several changes to fix a variety of small issues and get completely comfortable. Now that I'm teaching, with a clear understanding of things (several decades later), I can fix problems a lot faster than that. It's a combination of chop and jaw position, tongue position(s) both when articulating and when not articulating, and synchronization of air with everything else. Maybe seems complicated but it's really not.

Glad to hear it sounds like things went well surgery wise.
Get as much rest as you need

I'm also happy to hear those factors are what I think are wrong too. I just can't seem to find the exact placement of these factors.
I'm sure you'll be able to help!

Please, tell us how things turns out with this. It is interesting for us both as teachers and players. Others can come here later and read and learn and get inspired from what you've learned. Tell us what studys you do to try fix this. If we want this forum to be a good resource also to others then we need to share what we practice and HOW we practice to overcome our problems.
Good luck!

/Tom