How did people even start playing trombone?

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

I was wondering when the sackbut was invented, why was music even made for it? When it was invented, I can assume that such a new and different instrument would have no players actually good at it yet, and therefore composers wouldn’t see a purpose to call on this instrument. So how did it start to get used in pieces, and how did people start becoming good at it?

[Posaunus]

Lots of music history available in libraries and on line.
Try doing your own research instead of being spoon-fed.

[brassmedic]

There are some very knowledgeable people here on that subject, so I imagine you're going to get some very detailed responses, but essentially, the trombone didn't just suddenly appear, it evolved. People blew into shells or animal horns and discovered that it made a pleasant sound. Then they figured out how to make a tube out of metal that made an even better sound, and if you hammered out the end of it into a bell shape, it worked even better. And if you bent the tube so that it doubled back on itself, it had a more compact shape that was easier to hold. The next innovation was to add a telescoping tube so that you could change the pitch while you were playing. And then they figured out they could double the telescoping tube back on itself so that moving it half as far made the same change in pitch. And there you have a trombone. People already knew how to play a brass instrument; the form just evolved over time.

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

There are some very knowledgeable people here on that subject, so I imagine you're going to get some very detailed responses, but essentially, the trombone didn't just suddenly appear, it evolved. People blew into shells or animal horns and discovered that it made a pleasant sound. Then they figured out how to make a tube out of metal that made an even better sound, and if you hammered out the end of it into a bell shape, it worked even better. And if you bent the tube so that it doubled back on itself, it had a more compact shape that was easier to hold. The next innovation was to add a telescoping tube so that you could change the pitch while you were playing. And then they figured out they could double the telescoping tube back on itself so that moving it half as far made the same change in pitch. And there you have a trombone. People already knew how to play a brass instrument; the form just evolved over time.

Ohhh, thank you! That makes a lot of sense actually. My assumption is that it appeared as a prop instrument, a sort of bass slide trumpet, and then people who would kinda mess around with it eventually became good

[Mikebmiller]

And right after that, players started having arguments about which mouthpiece and bore size to use for a particular piece of music. And wars were fought over what was the best slide lubricant.

[Kbiggs]

And right after that, players started having arguments about which mouthpiece and bore size to use for a particular piece of music. And wars were fought over what was the best slide lubricant.

The “Slide Lubricant War” was a minor offshoot of the Thirty Years’ War, when Catholics used olive oil and Protestants used grape-seed oil.

The only true casualty of The Slide Lubricant War occurred when Erasmus “Müssy” Starke, a tenor sacbut (sackbut, sackbutt, saquebouche, etc.) player in a band hired to lead a garrison towards the Battle of Lutzen from the nearby town of Ragwitz, tripped on a harquebus (harkebuss, harken-bus, hackbus, etc.) carried by Johann Bleifuß, causing both men to fall. Starke’s instrument was crushed, along with his hopes of becoming a soloist in Gustavus Adolphus’s court, while Bliefuß’s harquebus was snapped in two. (Starke’s hopes as a court musicians would have been crushed anyway, as Gustavus Adolphus’s forces were routed, and he was killed in battle.)

A small scuffle ensued, leading to both men staying behind in Ragwitz. As the combatants eventually found themselves outside a Rathskeller, they decided to enjoy a friendly pint or two to toast their good fortune at having missed the battle. A friendship ensued, and later a partnership developed whereby the two men invented new types of arms and armor, including the first (and only) example of a telescoping harquebus. Alas, the partnership was doomed to failure as Starke was Protestant, and Bleifuß converted to Catholicism to marry his wife, Anna Einzen-Dreifuß Bleifuß. The origins of the short-lived Slide Lubricant War were once again highlighted when the men could not agree whether to lubricate the telescoping tubes with olive oil or grapeseed oil.

[Posaunus]

And right after that, players started having arguments about which mouthpiece and bore size to use for a particular piece of music. And wars were fought over what was the best slide lubricant.

The “Slide Lubricant War” was a minor offshoot of the Thirty Years’ War, when Catholics used olive oil and Protestants used grape-seed oil.

...

Methinks we could make a good chain novel from this first chapter.
A lot easier than trying to record and synchronize a trombone choir video!

[By the way, my lubricant preference is better than yours!]

[harrisonreed]

It was one of the first fully chromatic instruments. People wanted to play it because it was capable of virtuosity that other brass was not capable of at that time. There is music written for trombone early on that is extremely difficult, and it falls off after a while once other instruments hit the scene that were maybe easier to play.

[HowardW]

It was one of the first fully chromatic instruments.

Granted, it was one of the first fully chromatic WIND instruments.

People wanted to play it because it was capable of virtuosity that other brass was not capable of at that time.

That's a very broad statement. What time is "at that time"?
At the time that the trombone was developed and came into use, there were other instruments that were far more capable of virtuosity, for example the shawms and the cornetto, but not the trumpet. It took a while before the trombone even came near to them in terms of virtuosity (one of the first virtuoso trombonists was apparently Tielman Susato (ca. 1510-after 1570), who later gave up playing to devote himself to his printing business.

Early trombone music is generally not all that difficult. Only after 1600 does one find an occasional piece that presents some difficulties, but not more so than the pieces that were written for other contemporary instruments. Or maybe you know something I don't?

Howard

[harrisonreed]

Howard, I definitely don't know more than you. Yes, I was thinking of the music by Frescobaldi and Speer. Early 1600s. I wouldn't call a lot of that stuff easy. But, again, was brass other than the sackbut capable of that kind of music between 1470 and 1650?

[HowardW]

Howard, I definitely don't know more than you. Yes, I was thinking of the music by Frescobaldi and Speer. Early 1600s. I wouldn't call a lot of that stuff easy. But, again, was brass other than the sackbut capable of that kind of music between 1470 and 1650?

Frescobaldi never specified trombone, although some of his pieces for basso solo almost work for trombone (even better than they work for viola da gamba, by the way). Speer was a bit later: 1685-97. Actually, Schütz wrote some challenging trombone parts, for example "Fili me Absalon" and especially "Attendite popule meus" (1629), as did Dario Castello (1621).

Maybe it's splittting hairs, but the cup-mouthpiece instrument cornetto sort of has to be considered a "brass" instrument, even though it's made of wood and leather. It was, after all, paired with the trombones for much of that time period, although the parts written for it were often quite a bit more demanding than those for the trombone.

Howard

[harrisonreed]

Cornetto couldn't have been any easier to play then than it is today -- fiendishly difficult to play. I agree, it's kind of a brass family instrument.

Thanks for keeping me squared away!

[HowardW]

Thanks for keeping me squared away!

You're welcome!
By the way, there are several cornettos made of ivory. although it's hard to know whether they were actually played or rather collector's items.

Howard

[Ozzlefinch]

And right after that, players started having arguments about which mouthpiece and bore size to use for a particular piece of music. And wars were fought over what was the best slide lubricant.

The “Slide Lubricant War” was a minor offshoot of the Thirty Years’ War, when Catholics used olive oil and Protestants used grape-seed oil.

....

And they were both wrong because everybody knows that sunflower oil slide lube is superior to both grapeseed or olive.

[Posaunus]

Grandpa used Squibb Mineral Oil. But I'm not sure it was for his trombone slide!

[harrisonreed]

Thanks for keeping me squared away!

You're welcome!
By the way, there are several cornettos made of ivory. although it's hard to know whether they were actually played or rather collector's items.

Howard

Just to keep the dialogue going, I completely forgot Castello but had listened to a lot of their music going through Caecilia-Concert's discography. I'd recommend anyone check that group out. If Wolfe is any indication of what people in the past could do with a sackbut, that's about all the reason I would need to take it up myself.

You brought up the cornetto, but again, that instrument seems exponentially more difficult to play than the sackbut or trombone. Wouldn't the sackbut have been very attractive to musicians from its invention up until the trumpet and horn started to overtake it? It seems like it (and the alto and bass variants) filled up a huge void that not many other instruments could fill. Violas and cellos, sure, but they will never equate to wind instruments.

That alone would have been enough for people to take it up. "I don't have to cut my lip on this damn cornetto anymore!"

[AtomicClock]

You brought up the cornetto, but again, that instrument seems exponentially more difficult to play than the sackbut or trombone

Forgive my ignorance. I'm imagining something like a trumpet embouchure plus something like woodwind (recorder?) fingerings. The combination of those two doesn't seem exponentially more difficult than any other instrument of the day (or now). What makes it hard?

Also, is the preferred term cornetto or just cornett? I thought cornett was the common English language word.
http://www.ecse.co.uk

Edit: I'm sure I would say cornetto in spoken conversation, to differentiate it from cornet. But it never comes up.

[harrisonreed]

The problem is that the mouthpiece is very small, the instrument is relatively long so it's awkward to hold, and changing the fingerings will change the pressure and angle of the mouthpiece on the lips.

And that is the stuff that happens without worrying about intonation.

[AtomicClock]

...awkward to hold ... change the pressure and angle of the mouthpiece ...

Sounds like marching band!

[LeTromboniste]

Yes the cornetto is insanely difficult to play, and that was also historically the case. It demands a ridiculously delicate approach to playing. Any force or tension or fatigue and the sound quality goes away. But when played well, it's absolutely unique, and was the king of instruments for several decades.


To address the initial question: it's not the easiest question to answer because documentation from the 15th century, when the trombone was invented, is both sparse and often not very precise. Iconography is not photography, and not always reliable, especially with new inventions the artists are not familiar with. In terms of surviving instruments there is only one brass instrument of any kind that survives from that century, so again limited information (it's a signal trumpet, and by chance it was exceptionally well preserved by being trapped in mud after it was thrown down in a castle's well along with guns and weapons, likely to avoid them being taken by an enemy force). You need to look at the overall historical context and what came before.

What the the various evidence very strongly suggests is that in the 15th century, slide trumpets were used in the "loud bands" of the time, along with shawms and bombards, the loud double reed instruments. Earlier, those reeds instruments would have sometimes played with one or more long trumpet, the bombard playing a "tenor", basically a known tune, and the shawm improvising a higher countermelody, while the trumpet(s), limited to the harmonic series, would provide a rhythmical drone. By the fifteenth century, you would typically now have two lines against the tenor, this additional third voice being more or less in the same range as the tenor. And to play that third moving voice they added a single telescoping tube to trumpets. Those bands served a variety of functions, from playing from city walls and towers to signal time and announcements, to providing entertainment at banquets, notably as basically a dance band. They were multiinstrumentalists and played a variety of instruments aside from the reeds and trumpets, also bagpipes and percussions and crumhorns and various other loud wind instruments. The cornetto also appears to have initially started as one of those loud instruments, around the same time as the trombone.

It is very likely that the trombone evolved from the slide trumpet together with (or because of) the addition to the polyphonic texture of a fourth, definitely lower, voice: the bass. A slide trumpet has about the tubing length of an alto trombone, and only has about four semitones on the slide, so its low range is not really usable, with some very large gaps. Its practical range is really around to , roughly, with also a few lower notes available when needed (with a gap in-between), and for sure nothing below A. So it definitely doesn't work as a proper bass instrument. It seems likely that they experimented with various ways to make the trumpet longer and lower pitched (there is iconography of instruments that appear to have a single slide but are much longer than you would expect from a slide trumpet, with tubing extending past the player's head, of course those could just be poorly drawn slide trumpets or trombone, but a hypothetical longer trumpet is also a logical step). But the lower it is, the fewer positions it has, and you never reach a satisfactory solution, until you come up with the double, U-shaped slide, and the trombone is born. That is around 1450.

The trombone and cornett very quickly proved to be more versatile and not only able to play loud, but also very quiet and in a way that worked very well with voices, and they started being used in church as well, a role it has managed to continuously keep, in at least some places. That versatility is one of the key factors that explains the instrument's success. Within a hundred years of its inception you see trombones used in a tremendous variety of situations, still playing with the loud band, and with singers in church, but also mentioned as an option for the bass of the flute or recorder consorts, for example, or even described playing in chamber settings with a flute, a harp. It could play loud and soft, it could do fast notes but also hold very long notes, it could play chromatically over a very wide range, it could be used as a bass, tenor or alto instrument (already before the bass and alto trombones appeared) and it could transpose without causing problems with intonation. It could be trumpetty and clear from a distance outdoors, or extremely refined and subtle in its imitation of the inflections of the voice.

It's important to note that music wasn't "made for it" at first, and composers didn't write "for it", or for any other instrument for that matter. For the most part, composers or transcribers didn't start specifying instrumentation until the late 16th century, and even then it usually stayed very flexible until well into the baroque era. Performers (and leaders) chose what instruments were used when and for what. And so they wouldn't have used the trombone if they couldn't play it well for the contexts they wanted to use it in. They chose to use it in so many different situations because it was so well-suited for all of them, and clearly there were capable players around.

As to how people became good at it, you have to remember that people back then, especially lay people, didn't have school to attend for most of their first 20+ years (and they also had far fewer distractions to occupy themselves with). They were instead usually trained from a very young age for a specific job. If you were a professional wind instrument player, you were probably born from a family of musicians, would have trained your whole life, from early childhood, and would learn a large number of instruments to a very high level. So picking up this new instrument would not have been particularly challenging (especially if you're already proficient on the slide trumpet, which is harder to play). You also didn't have to learn all of the musical styles and languages that didn't exist yet. Only the language and style of the time, which they would have known and understood extremely well. I can easily see how a few particularly gifted players would have emerged early on and established a reference level for others to follow. In fact we have the names of some of those, for example Augustin Schubinger, Hans Neuschel and Hans Stewdl, all trombonists who were members of or regularly played for the bands of the imperial court of Maximilian I (although Schubinger became particularly famous more as a cornettist), and are featured and named in the famous "Triumphzug Maximilians".

Here's Schubinger (on cornett) and Stewdl (trombone) depicted playing with the cantorey



And Neuschel (trombone) depicted leading the loud band

[musicofnote]

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[robcat2075]

Disclosure: I haven't read the entire discussion. The following may have already been repeatedly revealed.

I was wondering when the sackbut was invented, why was music even made for it?

Music wasn't made for it. Nearly all the instruments that originate before the classical era seem to have begun as a way to double a vocal part in a choir. A trombone, which is fully chromatic and fully tunable would be ideal for this role.

When it was invented, I can assume that such a new and different instrument would have no players actually good at it yet, and therefore composers wouldn’t see a purpose to call on this instrument. So how did it start to get used in pieces, and how did people start becoming good at it?

Like the other pre-classical instruments, the trombone did not spring fully formed from the head of an instrument maker. They are the results of many incremental advances, both happy accidents and prescient guesses. The full technique was built in stages as each new development enabled something new.

The precursor to the trombone is the slide trumpet, which is NOT AT ALL a tiny trombone.

I bet the slide trumpet began when someone simply wondered, "How could we alter the pitch of our fixed trumpet without needing to stop and insert a different crook?"

Checkout the contraption on the far right.



Have I mentioned my alarm at the wire stands on that wooden parquet floor?

.

[Posaunus]

I was wondering when the sackbut was invented, why was music even made for it?

Checkout the contraption on the far right.

Congratulations to Maximilien and his I Fedeli colleagues for a wonderful performance!

I loved seeing the slide trumpet (which looks awkward and is I'm sure difficult to play well).

[Kbiggs]

Concerning the cornetto: If you’ve never heard the instrument played, or if you’ve never heard it played well, just look up Bruce Dickey. Yes, there are many great cornetto players out there today, but he is probably the best known. I have several of his recordings, and I’ve heard him live a couple of times. Transcendent.

[Posaunus]

For the OP:





By the way, the "sackbut" is the English name for what was simply known in Italy in the 1500s as "trombone." These days, the name is used to distinguish earlier (pre-Baroque & Baroque-era) trombones from what we see since the mid-19th century.

For more details, get in touch with Maximilien Brisson (LeTromboniste) - or better yet, use your own research skills!

[Tubaaiyue]

Starting from the 14th century, trombones began to take shape

[iranzi]

And right after that, players started having arguments about which mouthpiece and bore size to use for a particular piece of music. And wars were fought over what was the best slide lubricant.

The “Slide Lubricant War” was a minor offshoot of the Thirty Years’ War, when Catholics used olive oil and Protestants used grape-seed oil.

The only true casualty of The Slide Lubricant War occurred when […]

exquisite! trombone myth-making!

[ghmerrill]

While many of the effects of the lubricant wars are well known, the Slide Cleaning War of the 18th century is often overlooked in terms of its effect on the development of the cimbasso.

[iranzi]

The “Slide Lubricant War” was a minor offshoot of the Thirty Years’ War, when Catholics used olive oil and Protestants used grape-seed oil.

IMG_1207.jpeg

Amazing old depiction of the Slide Lubricant Warriors, with a slide pusher among them (but playing more with himself than with the rest of those guys: or why is he holding a mirror there? A forgotten technique? This needs to be revived PRONTO!)

Sackbut is such an amazing instrument! But i can’t seem to be able to reconcile myself to using its name in public. I keep wanting to reverse the constituents and get a childishly hilarious “buttsack”.

Although, even mere trombone, trumpet, and horn do get an occasional chuckle out of layman comedians. Few days ago i was practicing trombone outdoors next to a bicycle path. And there was this bunch of pot-bellied commuters on bicycles appearing from around the corner. As they passed me by, their leader quipped, loudly: “STOP blowing your own trumpet, mate!”
I had other things on my mind so i let it go unanswered…

Still, a proposal — to return a more dignified-sounding name, like the French sacqueboute, or the Spainish sacabuche.

[Kbiggs]

Forgive my ignorance. I'm imagining something like a trumpet embouchure plus something like woodwind (recorder?) fingerings. The combination of those two doesn't seem exponentially more difficult than any other instrument of the day (or now). What makes it hard?

Also, is the preferred term cornetto or just cornett? I thought cornett was the common English language word.
http://www.ecse.co.uk

Edit: I'm sure I would say cornetto in spoken conversation, to differentiate it from cornet. But it never comes up.

Cornetto, plural cornetti.

IMG_0333.jpeg

NOT this cornetto:

IMG_0334.png

In German, it’s often called zink, plural zinken.

[LeTromboniste]

Sackbut is such an amazing instrument! But i can’t seem to be able to reconcile myself to using its name in public. I keep wanting to reverse the constituents and get a childishly hilarious “buttsack”.


Still, a proposal — to return a more dignified-sounding name, like the French sacqueboute, or the Spainish sacabuche.

I just say "trombone" (or "baroque trombone", or "Renaissance trombone", if the context requires clarification). Pretty much the only time I'll ever use the word "sackbut" is when talking to modern trombone players (if even then).

Partly because almost none of the music we ever play on "sackbut" is English or French from the time they called it that way, whereas the vast majority of the music we play is either Italian (or Italianate, with Italian vocabulary) or German, and in neither language has the name ever changed. It's always been Trombone and Posaune, or some spelling thereof. And partly because calling it the sackbut tends to imply that it's a separate instrument, with a clear-cut difference between what is a sackbut and what is a trombone, and to give a false impression that the "sackbut" is a primitive ancestor, and the "trombone" is the modern instrument of Mozart, Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Mahler and the 20th and 21st century. Yet if a modern trombonist was shown the trombones that the first three in that list knew and wrote fore, the instruments that were used at the premieres of the Requiem, Beethoven 5 or the Symphonie Fantastique, and asked whether they are sackbuts or trombones, without context and without being told the year of manufacture or the associated composers and works, most would guess they are "sackbuts". Because they are in fact much closer in almost every respect to trombones of the 16th century than to today's instruments. The vast majority of changes/evolutions to the instrument and of the differences between so-called sackbuts and modern trombones occurred after the instrument started being called "trombone" in English. So the distinction just doesn't fit the historical reality it's associated with.