Pedals super out of tune

[veritone]

Hey, I'm new here- apologies if this is the wrong board.

I play a Conn 20H (1951?). I'm having to play a 4th trombone part in big band (I don't have a bass bone) which requires a few pedal Bb's here and there. Whenever I try to play one, it comes out sounding more like a C or Db below the staff. I don't know if it's just my playing ability- I'm a euphonium player- or if it's the horn.

Any ideas?

- Colin

[BGuttman]

Is this a 20H Director? If so, it's definitely later than 1951; probably more like 2001.

A 20H is a bit small to cover any notes below the bass staff. It's not really meant to play that part.

If it sounds like a Db or something you are probably playing the falset tone and not the true pedal. Your pedal Bb should sound exactly an octave below Bb 2nd line of the bass staff and should lock in pretty well. Even on a student horn.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

You are playing a false tone. I have taught many students who have done the same thing when I introduced pedal tones to them. Some player/horn combinations can really lock in on some pitches in that zone (usually D, D-flat or C), even in 1st position! Just keep experimenting and try these tricks to make the “leap” into the pedal register:

*Drop your jaw to create a larger mouth cavity.
*Shift the mouthpiece up .25 to . 5 inch to get a higher percentage of the upper lip in the mouthpiece.
*Visualize your lips protruding into the cup of the mouthpiece about .5 inch as they vibrate.

The good news is that the pedal notes almost always “lock in” much better than those false tones. In other words, YOU WILL KNOW when you are hitting the pedal notes because they will jump out at you!

[imsevimse]

The usable false tone on first position is Gb You could bend that false tone down to an F with relative ease. The Gb can with practice sound like a real note, just as good as the one on the fifth position. The F is harder and you can feel it doesn't lock in the same as the Gb.
Between that F and the pedal the notes doesnt lock in at all. Below the pedal Bb there is some no good noice that can be forced to a contra G, Gb or F.
Below is a low factitious note BB.
Is there a Db and C right above the pedal Bb?
Maybe someone real strong could bend the factitious tone Gb all the way down to a Db ocr C but I would not call them usable and there quality of sound is probably more like noise a far from clear.

The Gb and the low BB are the best factitious notes, all the rest noise are bent factitious notes.

WIth a F- trigger horn a low Db false tone kan be found at T1 and the low C at the second trigger pos (T2).

[AtomicClock]

Do you have a solid pedal Bb on euphonium?

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have heard inexperienced players lock in on almost every chromatic note in almost every position. Why and how??? Because they are inexperienced!

A 9-year-old came to my studio last year to start on trombone. For the first 5 or 6 lessons, EVERY NOTE in ANY POSITION came out as a low A-flat. Can it be explained through acoustics……probably not. It’s just the result of a kid pinching his lips and not using any air. The kid worked through it and is now doing fine.

I have taught dozens of beginner trumpet players who play a low A (concert G) exclusively for several weeks, no matter what fingering. It’s the freakiest thing, but it happens all the time. Imagine someone doing all the correct fingerings for a song like “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star” and the same drone pitch comes out for every note. That’s what we deal with in public school band programs! Again, weird things happen on a brass instrument when you pinch your lips real hard and use almost no air…..even with me saying “blow hard” repeatedly.

Back to the original inquiry. I have had numerous students get stuck on D, D-flat or C below the bass clef staff while trying to learn how to play a pedal B-flat. It has usually been on the smaller bore horns and they usually break through to the actual pedal notes with consistent and persistent practice.

Years ago, I was fascinated with this phenomenon and worked on recreating the tones myself. I found that if I pinched my lips and used a very weak air stream I could play a complete chromatic scale down in that register.

[veritone]

Is this a 20H Director? If so, it's definitely later than 1951; probably more like 2001.

A 20H is a bit small to cover any notes below the bass staff. It's not really meant to play that part.

I’m not entirely sure it’s a 20H (connquest), the model and serial have been scratched off so it’s a guess.

Our school only has the one bass trombone, the rest of us are on peashooters and someone has to cover the part.

Do you have a solid pedal Bb on euphonium?

Yeah, pedals are super easy on euph for me. I’ve been playing for a while now. Six years or so.

[ghmerrill]

Do you have a solid pedal Bb on euphonium?

Yeah, pedals are super easy on euph for me. I’ve been playing for a while now. Six years or so.

In general, pedals on the euph are MUCH easier than on the trombone -- owing to the facts that the euph is largely conical bore and the trombone cylindrical bore and much more "free-blowing". It's particularly true in the euph 4th (F) valve range compared to the trombone F (or Gb or Eb or D or whatever -- bass trombone) range. I often use my (4 valve compensating) euph to play tuba parts all the way down as far at it will go, but on my bass trombone it's MUCH more difficult to get those valve pedal tones to speak. If you hold down the F valve on a compensating euph, you're then playing a 3-valve F tuba, although as a result of its smaller bore that contra range doesn't sound great. If you hold down the F attachment trigger on a trombone you're just playing an F trombone. Some big differences there. Similar considerations apply to even a 3-valve euph and an unvalved tenor trombone because of the conical/cylindrical bore issues and the typical bore sizes involved.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

If you can play pedals notes easily on a euphonium, you should be able to play them on a 20H trombone as well. Although the pedals might not be as effortless.

This is sounding more and more like a mechanical problem with the trombone. Possibly an air leak or something is lodged in the tubing of the instrument. It’s a straight instrument, so you should be able to do a visual inspection of the 2 straight parts in the bell section and the inner slide tubes. The outer slide and the tuning slide can be checked for obstructions by using a cleaning snake.

[PiccoloTrombonist1]

The usable false tone on first position is Gb You could bend that false tone down to an F with relative ease. The Gb can with practice sound like a real note, just as good as the one on the fifth position. The F is harder and you can feel it doesn't lock in the same as the Gb.
Between that F and the pedal the notes doesnt lock in at all. Below the pedal Bb there is some no good noice that can be forced to a contra G, Gb or F.
Below is a low factitious note BB.
Is there a Db and C right above the pedal Bb?
Maybe someone real strong could bend the factitious tone Gb all the way down to a Db ocr C but I would not call them usable and there quality of sound is probably more like noise a far from clear.

The Gb and the low BB are the best factitious notes, all the rest noise are bent factitious notes.

WIth a F- trigger horn a low Db false tone kan be found at T1 and the low C at the second trigger pos (T2).

There’s also a Db on the same falsetone-partial as a false B natural in 5th

[imsevimse]

The usable false tone on first position is Gb You could bend that false tone down to an F with relative ease. The Gb can with practice sound like a real note, just as good as the one on the fifth position. The F is harder and it doesn't lock in the same as the Gb.
Between that F and the pedal the notes doesn't lock in at all. Below the pedal Bb there is some no good noice that can be forced to a contra G, Gb or F.
Below is a low factitious note BB.
Is there a Db and C right above the pedal Bb?
Maybe someone real strong could bend the factitious tone Gb all the way down to a Db ocr C but I would not call them usable and there quality of sound is probably more like noise a far from clear.

The Gb and the low BB are the best factitious notes, all the rest noise are bent factitious notes.

WIth a F- trigger horn a low Db false tone kan be found at T1 and the low C at the second trigger pos (T2).

There’s also a Db on the same falsetone-partial as a false B natural in 5th

The false tone (factitious tone) Db is in 6:th position.
1 = Gb
2 = F
3 = E
4 = Eb
5 = D
6 = Db
7 = C

Since you can bend false tones with relative ease the B can be played at the same pos as the C which means:
7 = B (a bent false tone)

That B can also be found at a slight raised 6:th pos but I can not explain why. It could be another, even more weak partial or it can be explained as a bend (whole tone) from the false tone Db on 6:th (but why slightly rased?) I've heard it demonstrated with good result/good sound by the professional who taught me the false tones in the first place. He couldn't explain that note with acoustics but I could clearly hear when the slide was at correct spot and it was at a slight raised 6:th pos. The false tones I listed above can be explained with acoustics and you can search the forum to find those threads if you're interested.

You need a real strong and well developeded emboushure to be able to get any false tones with a good sound. To get that B on a raised 6:th with a good sound is even more demanding. For me it is a bit more open there compared to a bent false tone in 7:th but I don't know what is best pos for that B. Anyway, that note is good to practice. When I practice I practice B on both pos. When you get to a certain point with your skills on false tones you begin to feel that the false notes lock in best at certain positions, and they are at the positions I listed above. That is if you want them with the same sound as normal tones. If you do not spend the time to investigate where the best sound is then you will not feel that difference and that's also why many players (even pros) play the false tones at the same pos as the octave above. They can be found there too but in my book they then practice to play the bent false tones. One position down from the higher octave gives the best sound and the false tone locks in and feels like a partial, a "weak" partial if you compare with the normal tones but strong enough to be felt and heard, heard as a difference in sound not as obvious as a "slot" higher up naturally, but as a shift in the sound. The tone opens and becomes clear and is locked into what can be described as usable sound that is comparable to other good sounds on the horn you regularly use in public.

Note that the false tones are much better on a horn without a valve. That specially applies to the Gb, F and E on the open side of the trigger horn, they are much better and easier on a straight horn. As you extend the slide they get better and better and that goes for any type of horn, the Eb, D, Db, C is therefore easier and works also on the open side of a trigger horn. The Db on T1 on the trigger horn is again harder compared to the C and B further out.
They get easier as a higher percentage of the horn is cylindrical when you extend with the slide. The mass of the valve section also seem to make them harder to play. Yet another thing I've noticed is they are easier on a TIS horn which means the conical part of the goose neck that exists on TIS horns effects the playability of these false tones too.

The false tones is another tool in the box and compared to other things on the horn that are more useful to know you shouldn't spend to much time on those, but if you want to learn them you could do about 5-10 minutes a day just to see if you can lock in to them with a good sound. No point to use them if they sound bad.

/Tom

[Olofson]

Hey, I'm new here- apologies if this is the wrong board.

I play a Conn 20H (1951?). I'm having to play a 4th trombone part in big band (I don't have a bass bone) which requires a few pedal Bb's here and there. Whenever I try to play one, it comes out sounding more like a C or Db below the staff. I don't know if it's just my playing ability- I'm a euphonium player- or if it's the horn.

Any ideas?

- Colin

The Conn 20H (1954 or 55) has a very small bore, 0,485 so the pedal Bb could be a bit harder to play, but i should be there. Have you check your water key? Is you slide clean inside? (If you pinch your lips any not could be "played", that is not what is called false note though.) Let somebody else try the horn.