Switching from a .500 bore to .525

[jackyjazz]

Is my Bach 7C adequate for this change?

[Doug Elliott]

It really depends on what you expect to get out of this change of horn. I think Bach originally supplied a 7C with the 36. But it's not what I would choose or suggest.

[jackyjazz]

I appreciate your thoughts. What might you suggest?

[Rusty]

A 7c will work, but you might find chokes off the lower range somewhat. For me, a 7c matches .500-.508 horns better. I’d suggest starting with a 6.5AL sized piece which is generally considered a good all rounder for a .525 horn. There’s many options slightly larger or smaller you could go to from that point depending on what you’re using the horn for and what embouchure type you are.

[JohnL]

Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't - but you need to give a try to find out. It depends on you face and on your expectations. If it works, great. If it doesn't, then you should start trying other mouthpieces (and a 6½AL is a good place to start).

[Trav1s]

It really depends on what you expect to get out of this change of horn. I think Bach originally supplied a 7C with the 36. But it's not what I would choose or suggest.

The 36B I purchased new in 1988 came with a 7C and it was adequate.

[jackyjazz]

Thanks, everyone. Great advice. I was leaning toward the 6.5 AL to try and will work from there. The 7C should keep me busy until then.

[Posaunus]

I think the 7C size is a bit small for a medium-bore trombone.
For my medium-bore (actually a Conn79H, 0.522" bore) I successfully use a Doug Elliott setup.
You could try:
• D4 or E4 Shank (mine is actually a D4*) - backbore suitable for 0.525" bore small-shank trombones.
• D Cup or E Cup to match the Shank (mine are LT series; you could use ST series).
• LT 100 Rim (or ST 100 Rim) - comparable to Bach 6½ Rim I.D. [Or whatever Rim size suits your face.]

[I'm not a big fan of Bach mouthpieces but there are lots of other choices in the 6½ size range.]

[hyperbolica]

I second all recommendations. 6.5al, DE E or D cup, and I'd add a Schilke 48. Which 525 did you get?

[JLivi]

I personally play an AR Resonance 25.10 on all my horns (.500, .508 and .525 bore). For the medium bore I use an AR with a wider throat, it's marked 65. I personally love the way it feels. I would also second Doug's mouthpieces. Getting the right shank is key.

In fact, I have a LT D cup with a D4 (2017) shank for sale if you're interested. I also have a LT 99 rim which is similar in size to my AR 25.10 or a Bach 6 3/4 C. That rim width suits me better. I personally have never been able to make a 6.5 sized mouthpiece work.

Feel free to PM or email me if you're interested in taking it off of my hands.

[jackyjazz]

Thank you for those detailed thoughts on mouthpiece choices. I’ve just ordered a Bach 6.5 AL and will start with that. I will refer back to all your comments as I settle into a sound. Thanks for all your time and guidance.

[Trav1s]

I'm a .522/.525" player that used a Schilke 51B for 30 years and then stumbled into Doug Elliott's stuff and won't turn back. I have found the Bach 6.5AM and Faxx 6.5AL to work for me but the Bach 6.5AL never clicked no matter how much time I spent with it.

[jackyjazz]

Thanks, Travis. I will weigh your experiences to my own after I have some time on the 6.5. It seems like Doug Elliott’s mouthpieces are something I need to acquaint myself with. You all have been so generous with you advice. Cheers.

[BGuttman]

Doug's mouthpieces are very good, but a bit pricey. Often out of the budget of a high schooler or other beginner.

A nice way to try a bunch of things without breaking the bank is to find some used mouthpieces, borrow from friends or the Band Director, or try the Faxx line (which are priced about half what a new Bach mouthpiece costs).

The difference between a .500" bore instrument and a .525" instrument is pretty small and for a beginner not consequential enough to require a mouthpiece change.

[dukesboneman]

I played .525 bore horns for over 20 years with a Bach7C. Worked great for me.
Stay with what works for now. Getting used to the Bigger horn will be an adjustment, don`t change everything at once.

[jackyjazz]

Thanks, guys. It is a bit of an adjustment with the .525. My slotting was much easier on the King 606. Lots of work to do.

[dcslideman]

For many years all I played was .525. My go-to was a Bach 7 (no C) with an enlarged .250 throat. For years I didn't know it was enlarged and now that I know it, I don't know if it was a factory modification. The 6 1/2 AL and Yamaha 48 also worked well. The 7 was a little better on the high range without giving up anything in the low range.

[Matt K]

The backbore of your shank is really important. A lot of pieces are designed with smaller bores in mind. I find that on my 525 horns, something deeper than what I play on my smaller horns works better. I use an XT104N/XTE/E4, which is like a narrow 3G rim with a 6.5AL cup but a bigger backbore.

That all said, are you talking about the YSL640 in your profile? If so, there's a reason that the 606 slots differently. You're going from a relatively small horn to a pretty large horn. Yamaha pro medium bores are 8.5". Many are one-piece, although the Yamaha spec sheet indicates the 640 is two-piece. It's probably an unsoldered bell bead. The tuning slide is the same as their large bores, and the bell throat is actually larger than that of an Edwards large bore. Your 640 is more large bore than small bore! So you're going to have to work at making it slot if you expect it to be anything like your 606!!

I don't know what the leadpipe of the 640 is like, but I find that I really do not get along with Yamaha medium bore pipes. Their 354/356 pipe works great (.500) for me. But on their 525, something with a little more resistance makes a world of difference. I've swapped out 645/646 leadpipes for Conn 52H pipes and it made a substantial improvement. At least for me. But that requires a torch and is a bit of a risky procedure, so I'm not necessarily recommending it.

So you might be best suited with something designed for larger, small shank trombones, like Doug's E4, the open Long Island Brass shank, Greg Black "Medium Tenor" backbone, etc. I wish I could give more advice but I've not gotten along with "stock" mouthpieces for a long time. And I hated the .525 bore size until I ended up with something designed specifically for them and now it's practically all I play.

[bassclef]

Yamaha pro medium bores are 8.5". Many are one-piece, although the Yamaha spec sheet indicates the 640 is two-piece. It's probably an unsoldered bell bead.

It definitely is unsoldered.

I love a good medium bore and work with one quite a bit. I went through a lot of them (aside from Shires & Edwards options) and landed on the 640. I love it, but I think it'd be the perfect medium bore (for me) if it had an soldered 8" instead of 8.5" bell. I think that'd bring the default sound profile more towards the small bore side instead of the mini-symphony tenor end of the spectrum. It's definitely flexible enough to be pushed in that direction, but I find it to be much less effort on my part to go the opposite way.

So you might be best suited with something designed for larger, small shank trombones, like Doug's E4, the open Long Island Brass shank, Greg Black "Medium Tenor" backbone, etc. I wish I could give more advice but I've not gotten along with "stock" mouthpieces for a long time. And I hated the .525 bore size until I ended up with something designed specifically for them and now it's practically all I play.

I've also been through A LOT of mouthpieces with my 640. Last year I settled on a small-shank Greg Black 6 1/2AL which plays and sounds like it was designed just for this horn, love it. I think that's for the reasons you describe above. The first leap forward I had prior to the GB was when I went from a Stork T1 to a T1S (bigger throat & backbore).

I am also trying a Greg Black 4.5AL with encouraging results thus far. I can get a pretty convincing impression of a .547 bore to happen with about half the effort and the sub-staff range is fantastic (as much as it can be on a .525, anyway).

[Matt K]

I love it, but I think it'd be the perfect medium bore (for me) if it had an soldered 8" instead of 8.5" bell. I think that'd bring the default sound profile more towards the small bore side instead of the mini-symphony tenor end of the spectrum. It's definitely flexible enough to be pushed in that direction, but I find it to be much less effort on my part to go the opposite way.

I just sold a franken 646 that I had a Getzen 1025R bell mounted on. It's two-piece, 8", but unsoldered. Made a huge improvement. I wish a few years ago I would have just bought a Getzen or similar 8" soldered bell and had it mounted to my 356. Would have saved a lot of money I suspect that a two-piece, soldered bead, w/ 8" bell would be killer on their medium bore chassis. It's odd to me they don't do that given most of the large bores DO have that profile. It wouldn't be hard in my mind to just shave off .5" of those bells or heck, even just put one of those bells on the medium chassis since they're already 8.5"!

[bassclef]

We have apparently had many of the exact same thoughts about this.

I also love my 891Z. I haven't tried to determine if this is even possible given potential differences in measurements (other than flare diameter) but I think an 891Z bell on the 640 could be fantastic.

[jackyjazz]

I’m really enjoying reading these comments. You’re throwing a great deal of new information at me and I’m learning a lot. BTW the horn in question is a JP Rath 231. I was looking for a darker sound without getting into a larger bore. My 6.5 AL arrives tomorrow. Using my 7C has gotten better as you would expect, getting more time on the horn. If this combination doesn’t work out I may look into Doug’s mouthpieces. I checked the website and boy is there a lot to gauge. Thanks for all your thoughtful responses.

[Matt K]

We have apparently had many of the exact same thoughts about this.

I also love my 891Z. I haven't tried to determine if this is even possible given potential differences in measurements (other than flare diameter) but I think an 891Z bell on the 640 could be fantastic.

Problem is that the Yamaha medium bores are all on the larger chassis. You might be able to make a ship or something but I bet it would be too long and have too narrow a throat to work well.


The Getzen bell fit no problem, and on the Getzen it came from, a Shires 7YLW8 fit and works great, so to some degree I would suspect any Edwards or Shires bell to also work. There are a lot of preowned Edwards 8” bells at Dillons or at least there were a few weeks ago. I suspect a 23 gauge or 22 gauge double buffed, yellow brass soldered bell bead would be fantastic on a 640 body

[imsevimse]

As others have suggested a 7C is small on that horn if you need the whole register. Something in the size of a 6 1/2 AL is better. You want that to best make use of the lower range. Personally my favourite mouthpiece on my Bach 36BO is a Hammond 12M (Bach 5-ish size).

If you plan to play lead in a big band with your 36 then a 7C might be more what you want. The Bach 36 is a bit large in such contexts but if you just own one trombone and have to use it in such situation, then I would go small. If it was me I would use a Bach 11C or my Yamaha Nils Landgren signature mouthpiece if I had to cover lead on a 36.

/Tom

[Pezza]

I use from between a 7C ish to 1.5G ish in my 36 (.525)! Most commonly use a 6.5AL & 5G.
I use either the 7C ish or 6.5AL in my Bach 12 (.500).

[jackyjazz]

I’ve spent a few days playing the 6.5 AL and it’s working out fine so far. Thanks everyone.