Fast Mute Change (Rocky Point Holiday)

ttf_Quiros · Post by **ttf_Quiros** » Mon May 15, 2017 8:49 am

I'm playing Rocky Point Holiday, which requires some fairly quick straight mute changes. Right before the last section where the tuba ostinato starts, there's only two measures for me to pick up a mute, place it in a bell, and play again after two short measures.

I can make it if I'm already holding the mute by the base with my left hand while I'm playing the previous section, but that only leaves my index finger to hold up the instrument and it's pretty awkward. Luckily, I don't require the F-attachment for anything during that part. I was wondering if there was a better method of executing this mute insertion.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon May 15, 2017 8:51 am

Are you the only one on the part in this ensemble?

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 15, 2017 8:54 am

You can try the old british band cornet mute change thing:

You place the mute in the curve of your leg (just on the opposite part of your knee) and hold it with your leg till the time comes (hopefully the mute is not too have for that).

You just take it out and place it in your bell.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Mon May 15, 2017 8:56 am

I have a few quick mute changes in some dance sets and I started holding my cup mute behind my knee. It's that much closer when I need it for those sections.

ttf_Quiros · Post by **ttf_Quiros** » Mon May 15, 2017 9:03 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on Today at 08:51 AMAre you the only one on the part in this ensemble?

No, there are a couple others on the part with me. I know I can work it out where I can drop out while the others are playing to insert the mute more comfortably. All the same, I'd like to imagine how it's practical for a single person on the part to execute this.

I hadn't thought of placing the mute behind my knee, though. I'll give that a try in practice. It's just a metal tenor straight mute, so not too heavy.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 15, 2017 9:06 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Today at 08:56 AMI have a few quick mute changes in some dance sets and I started holding my cup mute behind my knee. It's that much closer when I need it for those sections.

Brass Band kid?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon May 15, 2017 9:22 am

Two whole bars isn't that bad. I've had to do a mute change in a couple of beats

You can learn to hold the mute in your left hand while you support the trombone from the bottom of the bell. That gives you a little less movement and is less of a strain on your other hand.

I use the "mute behind knee" trick a lot. Sometimes I use it to "park" a mute after I pull it as well. Another thing I've seen is to put the mute between your legs. I use that more as a "park" technique than as a "ready" technique. It's a lot harder for me since I'm pretty fat.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon May 15, 2017 11:00 am

Yeah, Big Band music is full of one bar or less mute changes. Some are just plain not possible to do without missing a few notes. Just work it out with your section so that not everyone misses the same notes at the same time.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Mon May 15, 2017 12:09 pm

I don't know if this will help with speed, but a list member recently showed me this trick for security.

You grab the mute in the right hand. (It can be behind your right knee.)

You flip the horn sideways so the bell flare is braced against the inside of your left leg. Push the mute in, against the resistance of your leg.

This even works on a friction fit slide.

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Mon May 15, 2017 2:12 pm

The writing for mute changes at times is ridiculous!

I played Soul Bossa Nova with a brass band recently and we had a beat & a half to get the straight out. The tenors just about managed but I needed my trigger so no chance and it must have looked stupid. I ended using my hand as the mute!

I would love to see a pro section working it!!

Normally if I have a fast change I'll tuck it under my left knee until I get more time to put it down safely.

In these situations it's an unnecessary stress.

Perhaps there's a living to be made as a professional mute changer....a bit like a page turner for pianists.

Ross

ttf_Quiros · Post by **ttf_Quiros** » Mon May 15, 2017 2:31 pm

I see that composers' expectations often transcend the realm of what is physically possible.

I haven't played a lot of music requiring fast mute changes. There's a lot of good information here. I'll be sure to practice it before rehearsal.

A professional mute changer sounds like just what I need, though.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 15, 2017 2:41 pm

Quote from: Quiros on Today at 02:31 PMA professional mute changer sounds like just what I need, though.

Actually, trumpeters found a good compromise for that, when really needed. On the trombone it would be a little bit more challenging, but not impossible. You just need to adapt a stand to hold your mute in position and just place the trombone over it (more practical if you are playing standing, not sitting on a chair) and play. When you don't need the mute just play with the bell away from the mute.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon May 15, 2017 2:47 pm

Quote from: bonenick on Today at 02:41 PMActually, trumpeters found a good compromise for that, when really needed. On the trombone it would be a little bit more challenging, but not impossible. You just need to adapt a stand to hold your mute in position and just place the trombone over it (more practical if you are playing standing, not sitting on a chair) and play. When you don't need the mute just play with the bell away from the mute.That used to be the way derby mutes were done. If you look at pics of big bands from the 1930's and 1940's, they have the derby on its own stand.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 15, 2017 2:59 pm

Quote from: JohnL on Today at 02:47 PMThat used to be the way derby mutes were done. If you look at pics of big bands from the 1930's and 1940's, they have the derby on its own stand.

Exactly. I forgot about the hat mute thing. I saw that made on a harmon mute made for a contemporary music piece.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon May 15, 2017 3:08 pm

I often hold a cup behind my left knee and a straight behind my right knee. I use my left hand for all mutes; they can be changed very quickly. To save even more time sometimes I hold the mute in the bell with my left hand while playing, basically supporting the horn that way.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Mon May 15, 2017 8:01 pm

Crazy. I JUST learned the mute-behind-your-knee technique at rehearsal tonight.

Seems like it'd be prone to fumbles and mute drops, but if it's this common, I guess not...!

I've always used the mute-between-your-legs technique. It's super fast (for me) and pretty klutz-proof. Right hand grabs and twists in a single swift motion, and then the newly mute-free hand darts back to the slide.

But I can't do a fast pull/ fast insertion with my bass mutes or my Jo-Ral tenor straight mute--the bottoms are too broad for my right hand to palm them with a good grip.
When I need to do a really fast tenor straight mute change, I use my little Humes & Berg.

...but (*lightbulb!*) I've never tried the behind-your-knee technique with the bigger mutes!

I am pretty excited to try this next week.

Here's another idea I use a lot:
Talk to your section/ your director.
Consider not using mutes,
or doing the change in a more convenient part of the song,
or collectively skipping a couple unimportant notes to get an extra fraction of a second for the change.
It'll look less terrifying to the audience, and probably sound better too.
It may not be what the composer envisioned, but the composer shouldn't have been an idiot.
Did the composer want me to mangle my instrument in a botched mute change? Screw that.
(I know you've already worked this out, but I don't think it's an unreasonable actual solution.)

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon May 15, 2017 8:06 pm

For the large bottom mutes you can take a cue from the tuba players and install a handle on the bottom of the mute. A drawer pull would work. Use sheet metal screws to attach.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Mon May 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on May 15, 2017, 03:08PMI often hold a cup behind my left knee and a straight behind my right knee. I use my left hand for all mutes; they can be changed very quickly.
Yes, this ^^^^^^

I've also converted my bucket mute to just hang off my Bell. I got the idea from some one here on TTF and it works like a charm.

Another thing I use is a little mute bracket I got from Dillon's that clamps to your music stand ledge. It puts the mute right in easy reach of the left hand and makes a slightly better (for me) option to having a mute under both knees. Have one in the bracket (straight) and one under your left knee (cup). Plunger mutes go on my lap.

I wish I could hold a mute in my left hand, but I play bass. Not happening.

However, I've done that before when I played tenor in a Big Band.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue May 16, 2017 8:25 am

Quote from: LowrBrass on May 15, 2017, 08:01PM
---snip---

Here's another idea I use a lot:
Talk to your section/ your director.
Consider not using mutes,
or doing the change in a more convenient part of the song,
or collectively skipping a couple unimportant notes to get an extra fraction of a second for the change.
It'll look less terrifying to the audience, and probably sound better too.
It may not be what the composer envisioned, but the composer shouldn't have been an idiot.
Did the composer want me to mangle my instrument in a botched mute change? Screw that.
(I know you've already worked this out, but I don't think it's an unreasonable actual solution.)

Yes.

I often point out...sometimes at the risk of my job...that a mute change is simply not possible. I know all the tricks, but many so-called "orchestrators" today simply have no experience with human beings playing real instruments.

Ditto many conductors. They have taught to be be autocrats and that's the end of the story for them.

So it goes.

S.

P.S. The worst of all are bucket mutes. The insertion-style bucket mutes zeem to me to be almost unplayable in the higher ranges and all others...even the felt ones that resemble berets...are fussy to put on and take off. I recommend partially closed plunger...sometimes with some cotton washcloths or other material inside of the plunger...as a really good substitute for buckets. Done right they are almost indistinguishable, and by manipulating the amount of closure they can be played pretty well in tune if you know what you are doing.

P.P.S. In a pinch, those accessory pouches that come in so many soft cases can also work well as a bucket. Hold them in front of the bell like a plunger. Nice sound!!!

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:43 am

Manipulating buckets on and off in the same piece? does that happens often? That must be a real bummer.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue May 16, 2017 11:48 am

Quote from: bonenick on May 16, 2017, 11:43AMManipulating buckets on and off in the same piece? does that happens often? That must be a real bummer.

I just did an orchestral pops concert where I had to install and remove a bucket THREE times in the same piece. The first two I had 12 and 8 bars respectively, but the third was only 1 bar and a beat. That last one was the killer.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:22 pm

It's worse for bass 'bones. Had a piece where there was the use of a plunger - no problem, then had one beat to drop the plunger. No problem, except the next note was a low C. Couldn't drop the plunger then get my left hand back on the horn and push both triggers and get the slide out in that amount of time. So, I asked the conductor what was more important to him - playing the last bit of the muted stuff or playing the first bit of the unmuted.

If a mute change is too fast for me to do it quietly and reliably, I just present the MD with the options of what to cut to make it work. So far, it's been received well - they seem to appreciate being asked and given the control of deciding what goes and what stays.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Tue May 16, 2017 12:22 pm

It's worse for bass 'bones. Had a piece where there was the use of a plunger - no problem, then had one beat to drop the plunger. No problem, except the next note was a low C. Couldn't drop the plunger then get my left hand back on the horn and push both triggers and get the slide out in that amount of time. So, I asked the conductor what was more important to him - playing the last bit of the muted stuff or playing the first bit of the unmuted.

If a mute change is too fast for me to do it quietly and reliably, I just present the MD with the options of what to cut to make it work. So far, it's been received well - they seem to appreciate being asked and given the control of deciding what goes and what stays.