Mouthpiece for intentionally playing bass on tenor

[wnlqxod]

(I apologize if a post on this exists already)

Downsizing from the modern 0.562" on purpose may occur for a wide variety of reasons. Your orchestra may have a small string section (for windbands, flutes and clarinets); you may be in a large enough ensemble yet the section has downsized for a particular piece; the 19th century French really worked with 3 tenors in mind; who knows what can occur during sessions for popular music (term being used loosely to encompass all of jazz, latin music, "pop" music, video game or movie music, etc). Who. Knows.

So, you are playing "bass" (or 3rd, 4th), and you pull out a large bore tenor on purpose. What would you choose for a mouthpiece? A smaller bass piece than what you ae currently playing (e.g. going from Bach 1.5G/Yamaha 59 to Bach 2G), something like Bach 3G which sits on the "borderline" between tenor and (small) bass, or a straight up large bore tenor piece (Bach 4G, 5G, or the equivalent)? And what would be the rationale for choosing the said type of mouthpiece?

[Geordie]

I used a 3G on my King4b playing fourth chair in a large wind band/concert band type set up. Did the job, no complaints.

[WilliamLang]

If I had to go that route, I would use my normal tenor mouthpiece, and focus my practice on opening the sound in the lower register to be as rich as possible. If needed, I might scale up to a 26.7mm tenor mouthpiece (like the Alessi 1 series from GB and Griego, or the 67 from Laskey.)

But more philosophically, I think a well played bass isn't automatically louder than a tenor, especially if you get into the bigger tenor mouthpieces on the market. The tenor might be a little more compact in the core of the sound and project a little easier, but also projection sometimes reads as loudness to the listener so it feels like a "6 of 1, a half dozen of the other" situation in some aspects.

[Bach5G]

I was given the bass parts when I showed up at a big band rehearsal with a trigger horn.

It was a .525 with a S51-ish mpc.

Afterwards I got compliments for my great bass trombone sound.

[BGuttman]

A bass trombone mouthpiece of 100 years ago was about the size of a 6½ AL. For that matter, a bass trombone of 100 years ago was around 0.547" bore.

That said, when I played bass parts on a tenor I used my Marcinkiewicz GR mouthpiece; a little bigger than a 1½ G.

[hyperbolica]

I'm in this situation a lot. Normally I use my Holton tr159 or 88h (159 currently in the shop) with a 2g, Ferguson V or Schilke 58. My normal big tenor. mouthpiece is a DE xt104G8.

The Ferguson V is really great for this kind of thing. Commanding single trigger range and fully capable regular tenor range.

I've been filling in at a college band as adult mentor on bass bone, baritone and tuba parts just using my 88h. The sound is kind of aggressive, but they need some solidity down there.

[JohnL]

IMHO, context is everything. In other words, why are you using a symphonic bore tenor for the "bass trombone" part?

Is it because you're been asked to play a bass trombone part and the big tenor w/f is all you've got? For that situation, my choice would be small bass mouthpiece (1.5G, 2G) or maybe a tweener like a 3G.

Is it because your section is downsizing (1st trombone on small bore or alto, 2nd trombone on medium bore)? In that case, my choice would be my regular symphonic tenor mouthpiece.

Is it because the music seems to have been written to a section of three tenors? I'd go with my regular symphonic tenor mouthpiece here, too.

You'll notice that I didn't address the hypothetical "small ensemble" case. That's because I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to move to a smaller instrument. I find it's easier to play low stuff with sensitivity on a bass trombone than on a large tenor, regardless of what sort of mouthpiece is used on the latter.

[LeTromboniste]

This might be a bit controversial but... If anything, I'd tend to go the opposite route. In my experience playing an oversized mouthpiece on my tenor tended to make it sound not more bassy, just more dull and woofy and denatured.

When I still played modern trombone, I always had two mouthpieces for bass, my 1.5-range usual bass mouthpiece, and a tenor mouthpiece with a very deep cup (at the end I was using a Ferguson 2 for this, which is basically like a slightly wider 5G with a very deep cup and quite open throat, and really made the bass I was using sing – keeping in mind on tenor I was on 6.5AL to 5G sized gear, so the Ferguson 2 was still larger-than-tenor for me). I would then use the former by default, and switch to the latter when I wanted a lighter sound and approach, like some repertoire originally written for three tenors, repertoire written for essentially sackbuts and where the bass needs to be really nimble and light and not too heavy (like Haydn Creation, Mozart Requiem), and repertoire where only the "bass" trombone plays, especially when originally written for a tenor and where I think the trombone should add brightness and clarity to the double basses, not low-end weight (think Chopin piano concertos). With the smaller mouthpiece it still sounded distinctly like a bass, just a lighter bass with a nice character.

I don't think I would make that decision based on the size of the ensemble or desired dynamic range, rather on what I feel the music needs and the type of sound I want.

[OldWetOneCanoli]

When I'm playing one of my large bore tenors for etudes or solo work I'm either playing a 5G or a Symphony-T. In my community band we currently have 8 trombones. I sit next two the two actual bass trombones. If the section has two parts I play 2nd. It there are 3 or 4 parts I play 3rd (some of these are marked bass trombone). Since I am hanging out with the bass trombones I use a 3G for these parts. I just have to remember not to get into a blast-tissimo contest with these guys on bass. I also use the term "woofy" to describe the sound I get with the 3G if I am switching between the 5G and the 3G without settling into the 3G. Once I get used (adjust) to the 3G on the tenor the sound is better. The Big Band I play in I usually play 2nd on a .525" horn with a 6-1/2AL (or a 7C on a small bore if I play 1st). We have a bass trombone feature that 2 or 3 of us play together, and it is quite the adjustment (with no time to adjust) going from a medium or small bore horn to a 3G on a large bore tenor for one chart in the set. I bought the 3G to play on a school Bach 50B when I was a senior undergrad decades back.

[spencercarran]

This might be a bit controversial but... If anything, I'd tend to go the opposite route. In my experience playing an oversized mouthpiece on my tenor tended to make it sound not more bassy, just more dull and woofy and denatured.

Agreed. IME sticking a bass trombone mouthpiece in a Conn 88H doesn't make it sound like a bass or a tweener. Just makes it sound bad and unbalanced with unreliable intonation.

[Matt K]

IMO it depends on the contex of the player in question. Someone who is used to playing on a 1.12" rim and doesn't naturally switch to smaller pieces very well may be well suited on their normal bass trombone mouthpiece on a tenor for this use case.

A tenor player who is used to playing on a 5G, on the other hand, may not get much value out of switching to anything larger either.

I would generally optimize for the range that I'm going to be playing in, regardless of the instrument I'm on. If I'm going to be sitting in the middle of bass clef staff mostly, I'll probably use my euph piece, an Elliott 104N / K / K8. Or perhaps my SB106 / J / J8. If it's lower than that, one of those two or perhaps an LB110 / L / L8. If it's higher, probably my normal tenor piece, XT104N / E / E8 even if I'm playing a "bass" part. I don't notice too much "woodiness" or "dullness" from any of those pieces on tenor. Though I typically wouldn't get any larger than that. The LB114 I have doesn't confer much of an advantage on a tenor and I would probably just stick to a base if I was going that large. Frankly, I probably wouldn't pull my tenor out for this use case at all, personally.

I do recall... perhaps Matthew Walker? saying they had an 88HK or something with a dependent set made awhile ago that a lot of bass players said they really liked when they demoed it. So there is at least some precedent for liking the smaller, brighter sound. I myself had a similar horn for awhile. It's a niche use case for sure, but can be really enjoyable to play.

[AtomicClock]

IME sticking a bass trombone mouthpiece in a Conn 88H doesn't make it sound like a bass or a tweener. Just makes it sound bad and unbalanced with unreliable intonation.

Didn't Emory Remington have his students play 88H because they could cover bass parts too, with just a larger mouthpiece? I wonder what "larger" meant in that context. Presumably not like a Schilke 60. (Did Conn even make other 'pieces with that shank taper?)

[Matt K]

Yes; at the time, it would have been a small piece by contemporary standards, usually. However, the students who won bass gigs did not stay on an 88H, but at the time you could win a gig w/o having a bass, as hard as that is to believe now!

[Posaunus]

IME sticking a bass trombone mouthpiece in a Conn 88H doesn't make it sound like a bass or a tweener. Just makes it sound bad and unbalanced with unreliable intonation.

Didn't Emory Remington have his students play 88H because they could cover bass parts too, with just a larger mouthpiece? I wonder what "larger" meant in that context. Presumably not like a Schilke 60. (Did Conn even make other 'pieces with that shank taper?)

Conn's Constellation 3B bass trombone mouthpiece was made contemporarily with the 'Remington' tenor trombone mouthpiece, and was shipped with Elkhart bass trombones such as the Conn 71H. The 3B has the same shank taper. But I would personally not use it with an 88H.

[tbdana]

"Mouthpiece for intentionally playing bass on tenor." As opposed to accidentally?

[sterb225]

Playing bass on a 547 tenor is different than playing a 547 bass. The tuning slide and bell throat need to be addressed as well. Tenors get funky with a bass mouthpiece. Small basses will respond better to contemporary bass mouthpieces.

My own experience - I play a Griego Alessi 1C as my daily tenor piece on a T-396. If I substitute a Giddings Karif, things fall apart. If I use the T-396 slide and a proper bass bell section, the Karif works. It's more than just the mouthpiece to consider.

[Matt K]

FWIW, I suspect if you swapped the leadpipe for something more open and/or gave it a few days with practice, I suspect you'd adjust, and you may report the same thing about the tenor piece when you switch back! Again, not sure about whether it's actually worth doing though. I had a dependent tenor for a long time but I find that if I'm wanting something "lighter" than the largest setup I use... I wasn't going for that, I was reaching for my bass and using a smaller mouthpiece on it, like an SB106 / J / J8.

And I tried searching for the thread but I can't find it now. Maybe I'm hallucinating? I'm remembering a thread about a Greenhoe that was made that had a 9" bell and two rotors (dependent?). I'm pretty sure it was a tenor tuning slide. At any rate, my recollection is that a few symphony bass players tried it between the time it was built and when it shipped and everyone reported that they liked it... or something like that. Not for every application, but they could see the value in having something like that available. No recollection if they used a "tenor" piece on it, their "normal" piece, or a smaller bass piece.