Trombone of Theseus

[harrisonreed]

Asking for a friend.

If I start with a Shires trombone, and slowly replace parts with Bach parts to make it "better", at what point, if ever, does it cease to be a Shires trombone?

[JohnL]

I've spent a fair amount of thinking about this over the years. To me, the crossing of any of several thresholds would make it "not a Shires". It's not necessarily a Bach, either; that's a whole 'nother set of thresholds.

One threshold is the bell (not the entire bell section, just the bell).

I'd say that the valve set (if there is one) is another threshold component.

Slides are another matter. Swapping the entire slide section out definitely crosses a threshold. I would say that changing out just a crook does not. As far as slide tubes, I'm thinking that replacing more than two tubes crosses the line.

Neckpipe or tuning slide? Doesn't cross. Neckpipe AND tuning slide? Over the line.

EDIT
There's a whole 'nother question of what DO you call it if it's not a Shires any more, but still has too much Shires to be a Bach.

[elmsandr]

Lol, my 42 has been like this. I no longer own any of the original parts to the 42 that I purchased at WW and BW back when they were still a store on State Line Rd.

Mines still a bach though, as most of the parts I have made interchangeable are still bach… but not at all the horn I purchased.

Cheers,
Andy

[Kbiggs]

Tell your friend that it’s a trombone. It’s a Shires trombone with Bach parts, or perhaps a Bach trombone with Shires parts. Tell your friend it’s a hybrid. You can tell him it belong to Odysseus. Or maybe call it a rose.

It’s just a trombone.

[JohnL]

Tell your friend that it’s a trombone. It’s a Shires trombone with Bach parts, or perhaps a Bach trombone with Shires parts. Tell your friend it’s a hybrid. You can tell him it belong to Odysseus. Or maybe call it a rose.

You can tell your friend whatever you want, but when it comes time to buy or sell, a certain amount of clarity is a good idea.

[hyperbolica]

For sales purposes I think it would be ok to call it a Frankenbone. The name kind of describes the general arrangement. You'll obviously want to identify the major parts.

[harrisonreed]

See, I want to believe that -- in the spirit of Shires modularity and my firm belief that the instrument itself has a soul, and that it affects the player during their spirit quest to achieve masterdom of trombonerié -- even as the final component is swapped out, when the bell reads Mr. Vernon and the Haggmans go in, so long as the connection hardware for the bell and the slide nut are original, it's even more of a Shires than when the quest began!

and so the old 'bone weathered
It stayed with me through thick and thin
And when the bell then crumpled
And old Bach one I thus swapped in
And that slide never did me a favor
The crook had to go, and the tubes
Till "Edwards" it said, oh so proudly
A new tenon that fit like a shoe
And old Haggman had long ago taken
My heart for himself and his valve
The axial went up for auction
It's true value, I only got half
But those bell screws have stayed with me always
Though to fit they now have a slight bend
When you hear my sound through the hallways
Shires, it screams, Shires to the end

[atopper333]

EDIT
There's a whole 'nother question of what DO you call it if it's not a Shires any more, but still has too much Shires to be a Bach.

Maybe it would become an S. E. Bach? Or maybe a V. Shires?

I would agree that each instrument has its own soul. I kinda think of it like a muscle car…sure you swap in an LS motor in your 60s Camaro…but with a different engine, does it still have the feel or soul…I just don’t think it would…

[BGuttman]

See, I want to believe that -- in the spirit of Shires modularity and my firm belief that the instrument itself has a soul, and that it affects the player during their spirit quest to achieve masterdom of trombonerié -- even as the final component is swapped out, when the bell reads Mr. Vernon and the Haggmans go in, so long as the connection hardware for the bell and the slide nut are original, it's even more of a Shires than when the quest began!

Actually it should be:

and so the old 'bone weathered
It stayed with me through thick and thin
And when the bell then crumpled
And old Bach one I thus swapped in
And that slide never did me a favor
The crook had to go, and the tubes
Till "Edwards" it said, oh so proudly
A new tenon that fit like a shoe
And old Haggman had long ago taken
My heart for himself and his valve
The axial went up for auction
It's true value, I only got half
But those bell screws have stayed with me always
Though to fit they now have a slight bend
When you hear my sound through the hallways
Harrison, it screams, Harrison Reed to the end

[harrisonreed]

But Bruce, this isn't about me . It's about me, bagging on my friend who keeps adding non-shires parts to his horn.

[BGuttman]

Well, what's his name?

My point is that regardless of the brand, you have your own sound. How I sound on a Shires is not how you sound on the same Shires.

I thought you were referring to the "Grandfather's Axe" parable.

[DougHulme]

I'm reminded of a line in one of our old comedy series over here "Only Fools and Horses" In this there is a character called Trigger who sweeps the road. He says he has a fantastic broom (rough transaltion coming up maths will be wayward) and he's had the very same broom for 30 years, its had 12 heads and 6 handles in that time. Clearly it was a fabulous broom thats lasted for ever!... Totally off subject, sorry!

[modelerdc]

Even if your shires is all shires, except for the bell, it will take on a lot of the character of the bell. The slide and valves are just plumbing. so If you had a bach bell and tuning slide, it's going to play a lot like a bach. On the other hand putting a Bach slide on it won't change it nearly as much, the valves at best have little to do with the color of sound although stuffy valve sections do make it harder to play.

[harrisonreed]

Even if your shires is all shires, except for the bell, it will take on a lot of the character of the bell. The slide and valves are just plumbing. so If you had a bach bell and tuning slide, it's going to play a lot like a bach. On the other hand putting a Bach slide on it won't change it nearly as much, the valves at best have little to do with the color of sound although stuffy valve sections do make it harder to play.

Well.... If you insist on being serious about this question...

I think I actually disagree, at least a bit, with this. Shires slides are special. I don't think the slide "is just plumbing" either. To me, the leadpipe, crook, and slide width affect how the horn plays much more than the bell.

[baileyman]

This issue is resolved in the old racing car world. If you can trace the ownership, it's still what it was. So if you keep your Shires receipt, you got a Shires no matter what!

[ghmerrill]

This is a serious question, and you guys need to be careful with it. While there have been no reports of serious injury caused by discussing the Ship of Theseus Paradox, Philitas of Cos has long been rumored to have died from exhaustion in his attempts to solve the Epimenides Paradox. So there is danger here. If you start to feel disoriented or have difficulty sleeping, it's time to back out of it.

In full disclosure, as I sit typing this, hanging on the wall of my (home) office is a picture given to me by my daughter over 20 years ago. It's a picture of a Greek trireme with the title "Is it the same ship?". It's beside the sign that my son gave to me that says "Warning: Laboratorio pseudo-scientifico. Do not enter." I did just go to check on my Schiller 7b clone. But despite the minor modifications to it (leadpipe, bullet brace, 2nd valve paddle), I'm pretty sure it's the "same horn". Now if I decide (and manage to) switch the F and Gb sections ... well, then it would be harder to think that. But I don't want to end up like Philitas, and it's pretty much a theorem (Heraclitus, as I recall), that nothing is the same, although I sure wish some things were.

[Ozzlefinch]

What does the serial number say that it is? That's the only really important part.

[Dennis]

What does the serial number say that it is? That's the only really important part.

If it's a pre-Eastman Shires it may not have any serial numbers.

My Shires tenor has one (1) part with a serial number: the gooseneck (and I bought it separately from the rest of the horn).

[Ozzlefinch]

The serial number is the only real proof of origin.

If you have a Bach serial number and a Shires bell, then the horn is a Bach, and vice versa. The identity follows the serial number.

[harrisonreed]

I think it's the connection points. The skeleton, so to speak. Just because the serial number is attached to a part you don't want doesn't mean that it's not still a Shires

[Ozzlefinch]

If you try to sell me a Shires, and I check the serial number for authentication, and I see its a Bach SN, then I will pay a price for a Bach, or walk away from the sale because the seller is misrepresenting the instrument.

Ask yourself what would hold up in a court of law.

[harrisonreed]

Ask yourself what would hold up in a court of law.

Judge: Well, knowing the story of Theseus' ship, I rule that it's still a Shires. Also, as this whole thread is a joke, my ruling stands!

[CheeseTray]

The USS Constitution, one of the Navy's six original ships, has only about 15% of its original wood and yet it's still considered "the Constitution." I think you probably need a bit good more of the 'skeleton" than 15%, but maybe the modified Shires is still a Shires as long as it basically still feels like one when you play it...not that the label really matters if you like the way it plays.

[Ozzlefinch]

Ask yourself what would hold up in a court of law.

Judge: Well, knowing the story of Theseus' ship, I rule that it's still a Shires. Also, as this whole thread is a joke, my ruling stands!

Fair enough

[BGuttman]

Asking for a friend.

If I start with a Shires trombone, and slowly replace parts with Bach parts to make it "better", at what point, if ever, does it cease to be a Shires trombone?

There is an oxymoron here. People with Bach trombones switched to Shires and Edwards because they were better.

[JohnL]

Ah, but what it's the same trombone, but that trombone isn't a Shires any more?

Harrison, you opened this can of worms and baited the hook. Now you've got to deal with whatever you reel in.

[Digidog]

In the guitar world this is a really serious question, since the construction of some guitar brands allow for switching out all the structural parts.

While all guitars can be modified with regards to electronics and additional hardware, like changing potentiometers, tuners and saddles et.c., some guitars, like Fenders, also allow for free combining of necks and bodies. As it seems that most guitarists (mostly prevalent with American guitarists) modify their guitars to a higher or lesser degree, and tinker in general with them, this has also grown to be a major problem in the second hand market of guitars.

In the different guitar foras I attend, there are almost daily inquiries whether one guitar or the other is a real production model, or a modified parts-guitar. Since unmodified, original shape-and-condition guitars always fetch a higher price and are more sought after, this modification mania has opened up for a multitutde of fraud and scam.

Now, as the second hand guitar market generates far bigger revenues than the trombone ditto, and I'd guess the turnover of used guitars is a lot bigger than for used trombones, there has grown a wide use of hybridized guitars for fraud and scams of unsuspecting, or inexperienced guitar buyers. A guitar that at a first glance looks authentic and original, can take much knowledge and a highly trained eye to discern and discover anomalies, fakes, modifications and damage in.

It's far easier to modify a guitar - or some guitars - than a trombone, but even so the fact that there is a possibility to easily modify and switch parts open up for fraud and scam. In the guitar market, there seems to be a huge market for counterfeit guitars, that look very much like original Gibsons, PRSs or Fenders, but upon closer inspection have many, many small anomalies that give them away. The easy manipulation of a guitar's structure, can even further help a buyer that has originally been fooled to buy a counterfeit guitar to hone the guitar's apperance to further pass on the profit of selling a false-branded guitar to a second-hand buyer.

I have no idea of if there is a market for counterfeit trombones, and I haven't seen, or heard about, one. There are many cheap brass instrument brands that often hold lower quality, but I haven't really seen a trombone that can be deemed as a truly counterfeit, falsely branded horn. Has anyone?

Most hybridized trombones are clearly and openly marked and marketed as such, so I guess that the diminutive trombone market still hasn't made it profitable to produce counterfeit horns to trick unsuspecting buyers, hoping to make a real find and bargain.

Is there a market for fake, counterfeit trombones? Has anyone accidentally been tricked by a fake trombone, or narrowly dodged a bullet?

[JKBone85]

What does the serial number say that it is? That's the only really important part.

I like the idea of going by the serial number, and Harrison's idea of a skeleton. I actually think of the valve section as the chasis on which all the other components are attached, and conveniently enough, the only Shires component that is serialized, is the valve section. If it were a Honda Civic, you could replace the engine, the wheels, exhaust, the body kit, swap it all out with BMW parts, and the VIN of the chasis, is still a Honda Civic.

[Blabberbucket]

Why not just refer to it as a "Bach Bell and tuning slide with Shìres XYZ valve and ABC handslide" or whatever the components are? Who cares if it's "more Bach" or "more Edwards" etc?

Ship of Theseus is more relevant in a situation like: I have a Mt Vernon 50B, but the slide tubes, crook, tuning slide crook have been replaced with modern parts, and I had it converted to Indy with Meinlschmidt valves - is it still a Mt Vernon Bach?

[JohnL]

Why not just refer to it as a "Bach Bell and tuning slide with Shìres XYZ valve and ABC handslide" or whatever the components are? Who cares if it's "more Bach" or "more Edwards" etc?

Yes, why not? Yet most people don't. Too many words, I suppose.

[Finetales]

In my opinion:

- Trombone X, stock: X
- Trombone X with aftermarket valve or valve from another horn: modified X
- Trombone X with small parts changed (slide crook, tuning slide): modified X
- Trombone X with bell flare from trombone Y: X/Y hybrid/Frankenbone
- Trombone X with slide from a different trombone that fits without modification (e.g. Edwards slide on a Bach): X with Y slide
- Trombone X with slide from a different trombone that had to be modified to fit (tenon, receiver, etc.): X/Y hybrid/Frankenbone

With Frankenbones, you are obliged to come up with a fun portmanteau of the brand names instead of just listing all the parts. E.g. Bachwards, Connaha, etc.

[JohnL]

With Frankenbones, you are obliged to come up with a fun portmanteau of the brand names instead of just listing all the parts. E.g. Bachwards, Connaha, etc.

Gets messy if you use parts from three of more manufacturers.
Bachwardszen
Connahach

[Finetales]

The more, the merrier!

[BGuttman]

...

With Frankenbones, you are obliged to come up with a fun portmanteau of the brand names instead of just listing all the parts. E.g. Bachwards, Connaha, etc.

My Yamaha 682G needed a bell transplant which was handled by my friend who worked at Shires. He used to call my horn a "Stevaha". Great portmanteau and after I broke it in / got used to it a great instrument.

[harrisonreed]

I like it. I like it

[elmsandr]

The more, the merrier!

I often play:

Edwards leadpipe, Butler slide, Shires valves, Bach tuning slide, Holton flare.

I really haven’t figured out how to get another maker onto this thing.

Cheers,
Andy

[Posaunus]

The more, the merrier!

I often play:

Edwards leadpipe, Butler slide, Shires valves, Bach tuning slide, Holton flare.

I really haven’t figured out how to get another maker onto this thing.

Cheers,
Andy

Neckpipe? Mouthpiece? Lubricant(s)?

[Finetales]

The more, the merrier!

I often play:

Edwards leadpipe, Butler slide, Shires valves, Bach tuning slide, Holton flare.

I really haven’t figured out how to get another maker onto this thing.

Cheers,
Andy

- Make the flare a screw bell and put a different make on the end
- Conn counterweight
- Make the Butler slide worse by putting a brass crook on it from a brand not yet represented (M&K Drawing?)
- Yamaha linkages/paddles
- Different make tuning slide for each valve
- Rath hand brace

[Kbiggs]

My 42 and 50 are easy. They’re Bachulowsens: Bach flares, tuning slides, tubing, and main slides; Bulow (M/K Drawing and Bending) slide crooks; and Olsen (Instrument Innovations) valves.

If I were to make a portmanteau of the techs who’ve worked on my horns, I would call them (takes a deep breath) Wundhagen-Middlessens [Lindy Wunn, John Sandhagen, Graham Middleton, Benn Hanssen].

[JohnL]

I often play:

Edwards leadpipe, Butler slide, Shires valves, Bach tuning slide, Holton flare.

I really haven’t figured out how to get another maker onto this thing.

Use your imagination. Ferrules, braces, screws, water key parts. Lots of options.

[elmsandr]

I often play:

Edwards leadpipe, Butler slide, Shires valves, Bach tuning slide, Holton flare.

I really haven’t figured out how to get another maker onto this thing.

Cheers,
Andy

- Make the flare a screw bell and put a different make on the end
- Conn counterweight
- Make the Butler slide worse by putting a brass crook on it from a brand not yet represented (M&K Drawing?)
- Yamaha linkages/paddles
- Different make tuning slide for each valve
- Rath hand brace

It is a screw bell, that’s why the Holton flare! The only Conn bass I have handy is a Fuchs and that seems like a bridge too far…

I also don’t have a cross brace on the tuning slide, so might have to go with the Rath counterweights.

“One piece at a time…”
Andy