Bach 50A3 leadpipe Mod

[EZSlider]

Hey guys, I'm sure there's a threat on this already but I can't seem to find it. Feel free to point me in the right direction. Looking to have the stock lead pipe on my 50 A3 pulled and adapted so that I can use screw In style lead pipes to play with my sound a bit. Any advice?
Thanks
EZ

[Kbiggs]

I’m in Washington State, so I can’t recommend a specific tech.

General advice from this player’s perspecitve (worth 2 cents and a cup of coffee):

Ask the tech how many leadpipe removals they’ve done. Ask if they “fit” the end of the collar, the end that goes furthest into the slide tube. It should be snug but not too tight. A heavy slide grease helps to seal the end of the pipe to the slide. I use UltraPure, and a dedicated brush for heavy grease.

You can get a threaded collar or a push-in collar. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I chose threaded.

There are a few places that make off-market leadpipe collars with screw rings. I got mine through M/K Drawing and Bending. They have options for different threads. I chose a bi-threaded collar so I can try threaded pipes from different makers.

Ask the tech if they re-align the slide tubes after they’ve pulled the leadpipe for a push-in collar, or after they’ve installed the screw-in collar.

If they’re not already marked, mark your pipes somehow. If the tech can stamp the end of them, great. If not, use a permanent marker.

On trying different pipes:
Don’t buy too many at a time. Maybe two (three?) from the same maker with either different materials (yellow brass, red brass, copper, nickel, sterling); a different taper (e.g., Shires 1, 1.5, 1, 2.5, etc., or standard, open, long open, etc.); or different construction (drawn vs. seamed). They will play slightly differently.

Try them all in a single setting by choosing two brief passages (excerpt, etude, etc.) that highlight different kinds of playing: upper vs. lower register, legato vs. staccato, soft vs. loud. You want to test extremes. Once you’ve done that A-B comparison by yourself, choose your #1 favorite, #2, then #3. Take notes on your reactions to the different pipes.

Then play for your colleagues using the same passages and A-B comparison. A good set of ears in front of the bell will tell you a lot vs. your ears behind the bell.

Personal preferences:
Some leadpipe makers that have them in-stock or readily available: M/K Drawing and Bending (good, fast turn-around), Shires, Edwards. Bach has a few options now. Their stock and their open pipes worked well on my 50B3.

Worth the wait: Brass Ark/Brad Cloose.

Defunct: Chuck McAlexander/Brass Lab. I’ve heard they’re good.
I know there’s others.

[Burgerbob]

A removeable leadpipe adaptor usually adds some length to a Bach slide (which have an unusually short receiver by modern standards). If you are barely playing up to pitch, with your tuning slide almost all the way in, it may add just a bit too much.

[Danitrb]

I also asked the same question without receiving many answers (maybe the post was missed). Can anyone tell their experience changing leadpipe on a Bach (tenor and bass) slide?

How much length will be added to the slide?

[ithinknot]

How much length will be added to the slide?

~3/8" depending on the part (or less if the inner tube brace socket is cut down at the same time) plus ~3/16 from the ring on the new pipe

[hornbuilder]

If the collar is installed correctly, the added length is only as long as the thickness of the threaded collar on the pipe. In this instance, @1/8". Some of the receiver material has to be removed (on a lathe) for this to occur.

[Danitrb]

If the collar is installed correctly, the added length is only as long as the thickness of the threaded collar on the pipe. In this instance, @1/8". Some of the receiver material has to be removed (on a lathe) for this to occur.

This is a nice comparison, thanks!

[ithinknot]

If the collar is installed correctly, the added length is only as long as the thickness of the threaded collar on the pipe. In this instance, @1/8". Some of the receiver material has to be removed (on a lathe) for this to occur.

Absolutely this is what *should* happen. The figures I gave were worst cases, relative to the point about Bachs already being on the long/low side. Of course, trimming the receiver socket presumes that whole side of the slide is being rebuilt, which will be inevitable in many leadpipe removals... but not always if someone is going from pressfit to threaded with a tech doing the minimum.

You see the lazy version even on some production horns, like the Kanstul pictured below - a threaded receiver plonked on top of an existing full-length part as an afterthought, with "interesting" effects on hand and bell position...

13-dsc_0031.jpg

[hornbuilder]

In my experience with Bach leadpipe removal, the possibility of getting the pipe out "without" remounting the entire upper inner slide tube assembly is pretty slim.

[EZSlider]

Great dialogues guy's! Thanks for all the info
EZ

[Kbiggs]

As mentioned, Bachs tend to be a little long and may even more flat when adding a screw collar. If so, probably the simplest approach is to cut a little from the tuning slide and receivers. Matthew (hornbuilder) might have a better solution.

[Danitrb]

In my experience with Bach leadpipe removal, the possibility of getting the pipe out "without" remounting the entire upper inner slide tube assembly is pretty slim.

Do you mean that inner top slide has to be desoldered and re-soldered or is it lost in the process?

[hornbuilder]

To attach a threaded receiver to the Bach handslide receiver, the top needs to be removed. Marked by the red line. When I do this job, I will pull the pipe (which invariably ends up with the upper cork barrel assembly completely coming apart, because of the parts design and breakdown in this area of the horn.) I then rebuild the assembly (ensuring everything is correctly concentric. They are very rarely concentric from the Bach factory!!) I then mount the upper slide tube assembly in the lathe, and remove the required amount. This ensures that the threaded receiver is also concentric and square to the inner tube. The inner slide assembly is then rebuilt, ensuring correct fit to the outer handslide (which is usually also rebuilt, since they are rarely anything like parallel/straight from Bach)

[Danitrb]

To attach a threaded receiver to the Bach handslide receiver, the top needs to be removed. Marked by the red line. When I do this job, I will pull the pipe (which invariably ends up with the upper cork barrel assembly completely coming apart, because of the parts design and breakdown in this area of the horn.) I then rebuild the assembly (ensuring everything is correctly concentric. They are very rarely concentric from the Bach factory!!) I then mount the upper slide tube assembly in the lathe, and remove the required amount. This ensures that the threaded receiver is also concentric and square to the inner tube. The inner slide assembly is then rebuilt, ensuring correct fit to the outer handslide (which is usually also rebuilt, since they are rarely anything like parallel/straight from Bach)

It seems a bit complicate!

[Kbiggs]

To attach a threaded receiver to the Bach handslide receiver, the top needs to be removed. Marked by the red line. When I do this job, I will pull the pipe (which invariably ends up with the upper cork barrel assembly completely coming apart, because of the parts design and breakdown in this area of the horn.) I then rebuild the assembly (ensuring everything is correctly concentric. They are very rarely concentric from the Bach factory!!) I then mount the upper slide tube assembly in the lathe, and remove the required amount. This ensures that the threaded receiver is also concentric and square to the inner tube. The inner slide assembly is then rebuilt, ensuring correct fit to the outer handslide (which is usually also rebuilt, since they are rarely anything like parallel/straight from Bach)

It seems a bit complicate!

Do you want the tech to “make it fit,” or have it fit correctly?

[EZSlider]

Be a big deal to swap out the inner slide brace for a curved one like on that kanstul?
EZ

[ithinknot]

Be a big deal to swap out the inner slide brace for a curved one like on that kanstul?
EZ

If you're already rebuilding the slide and an appropriate part is available then the fitting isn't a big deal.

Have you tried one on a comparable dual trigger/wide slide instrument and liked it? They're not for everyone. I have horns with and without, and I don't actively dislike it, but I don't prefer it either.

Maybe try one of these first: https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... orbass.php

[hornbuilder]

Actually, fitting a curved brace on a Bach "is" kind of a big deal. It is NOT a simple swap in job.

[Matt K]

Anything curved is going to be non trivial. Also true of the King 3B and other King bell braces. I was originally going to use one on my franken 607 project until my tech told me how much trouble it can be to put in place.

[Danitrb]

To go back, I think, to the initial question... has anyone, who has done this type of work, changing leadpipe, felt an improvement in the response of the instrument? Do you recommend this, considering the fact slide has some years (in my case 15)?

[ithinknot]

Actually, fitting a curved brace on a Bach "is" kind of a big deal.

I know it's not a straight swap... Holton would be the best case for that, with solid cylindrical barrels and all transverse elements soft soldered.

That's why I said "if you're already rebuilding the slide"... if everything is broken down and cleaned up, hard (or at least soft silver) solder the Bach cork barrel to the socket brace for extra security, assemble as normal and then add a secondary curved grip in front, like B&S does. I don't know how many off the shelf parts there are like that, but it wouldn't be a fabrication nightmare if someone's willing to pay.

Screenshot.png

Same with King slides... eliminating the existing brace would be miserable, but adding a secondary curve wouldn't be too hard.

King 3B and other King bell braces

That's a whole other thing because everything's one piece, so no scope for adjusting span or angles. Basically, if you're not building that particular King model, it'll be wrong one way or another.

[Matt K]

Not to put words in Matt's mouth, but the idea I've been told is that it's substantially easier to put a brace in place that has two receivers rather than on receiver because it allows for more flexibility in assembly so it's much easier to get it correct that way. A separate, curved piece like pictured would probably be easier than a single piece that is going into a single receiver, but when you heat it up to solder both points, the heat transfers to other parts of the slide, so it in turn makes those loose. A single cross brace that has two accepting receivers is going to be the easiest to install.

I had my tech put on two "L" shaped pieces like on the Bach 42 slide and I watched him install it... it took a bit of time to get the alignment right because even with some tooling he had to hold it in place, warming up that spot made a few others spots loosen up. Getting everything just right is quite the balancing act.

To go back, I think, to the initial question... has anyone, who has done this type of work, changing leadpipe, felt an improvement in the response of the instrument? Do you recommend this, considering the fact slide has some years (in my case 15)?

I've done it to quite a few horns and have yet to find a horn that I liked the stock pipe more than an aftermarket pipe. That said... I may have just found such a horn. The collar isn't necessary, but it is quite nice to keep it firmly in place.

[ithinknot]

the heat transfers to other parts of the slide, so it in turn makes those loose

Partially yes, mostly "that's up to you to control"... if you align a normal slide brace by having two joints just swimming around the results won't be pretty

To summarize, it's entirely doable, and/but inevitably everything is more of a pain than keeping it standard. Hence the recommendation to try the Wise Grip first. It's not a definite improvement for everyone.