Lightest Bass Trombone

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:54 am

Just curious about this from a buyers perspective, what is the lightest independent bass trombone available today? I just finished up a few weekends of gigs exclusively in bass and my arm is telling me something needs to change, so I'm looking for options for a new horn to try out.

ttf_bassclef · Post by **ttf_bassclef** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:08 am

If you're an otherwise healthy individual, don't dismiss the idea of some properly done strength training focused on the musculature used to support the instrument.

As for instrument weight, in all of my albeit brief trials of various basses, the Kanstul 1585 was definitely the lightest feeling in the hand.

ttf_bassboneman · Post by **ttf_bassboneman** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:09 am

+1 on the strength training

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ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:09 am

A pretty difficult question to answer.

Have you tried a hand rest/bullet brace/changing left hand position first.

I always used to put my left forefinger up by the mouthpiece on my bass like I do with tenors but had to stop it due to pains in my forearm. I now tuck it into the corner of the hand brace...you could always have a ring added to it like you see on some older bones.

I also only put my 2nd valve finger out when required as again keeping it there was causing issues.

Worth a shot before weight testing all the various basses out there.

Ross

ttf_bassboneman · Post by **ttf_bassboneman** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:09 am

Well...according to your profile you are playing a King 8B. Not sure how much it weighs but I am thinking not as much as a horn w axials on it.

Maybe get an ergo-bone?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:27 am

The King 8B actually weighs more than most dual axial horns I've played, coupled with the fact that it's left hand bracing is horrible ergonomically speaking. The slide is too wide for me to put my finger above the slide so I'm using the stick finger ring which isn't very comfortable as it puts pressure on the knuckle of the first digit on my index finger. Placing my index finger inside the top of the brace doesn't work as the cork barrels are too short and pinch the bottom of my hand. I use a Rath Hand Brace right now and it helps a little, however due to the curved bell brace it doesn't stay in one place for very long. I do not like the ergo bone at all, I move around too much when I play. Also, I do strength training, the problem is the horn.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:36 am

Depends how much you want to spend. You could get something like a Shires with a light-weight bell and light-weight slide with standard rotors. I would image that would be pretty light.

ttf_schlitzbeer · Post by **ttf_schlitzbeer** » Tue May 02, 2017 10:39 am

What other activities are heavy users of your left arm? Are you a left side sleeper? I use a Rath hand rest and I'm trying out the neotech product.

Are you locked into playing a double valve?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:02 am

Quote from: schlitzbeer on May 02, 2017, 10:39AM...

Are you locked into playing a double valve?

The 8B is a double valve. I was going to suggest the 7B but it's not much lighter. Only difference is a smaller bell (9.5 inch vs. 10.5 inch).

Could you get away with a single?

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:05 am

I'm pretty sure most modern basses would be better than the 8B in that regard.

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Tue May 02, 2017 11:09 am

Phillip Freeman (bass trombonist of the Houston Symphony) came in and had a system to weigh all different horns. He came up with the R9D as the lightest and now plays that.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:11 am

I believe it is a question of ergonomics as well. but will leave that to bass players.

ttf_Fridge · Post by **ttf_Fridge** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:15 am

I have all light weight Shires equipment on my horn. This is the lightest that I've found. Played a 4 hour gig on Sunday night without any issues. I played an 8b for many years. Never had an issue with that horn, but my hands are on the large size. And, I was a LOT younger!

Fridge

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Tue May 02, 2017 11:54 am

The Balance of the horn can have just as much importance as the overall weight. Also, how you hold it can cause issues too.

Have you looked into using the "yeo grip" technique? You also may want to make sure that the angle at your wrist is pretty straight.

As others have said, strength training and endurance training cant hurt.

ttf_EWadie99 · Post by **ttf_EWadie99** » Tue May 02, 2017 1:45 pm

I played on a Benge 290, the 7B/8B's cousin during my first year of high school (sophomore year) before I got my own bass. I didn't had too much trouble weight wise. It does take a work out to play any bass IMO for long periods of time.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 02, 2017 3:30 pm

Quote from: daveyboy37 on May 02, 2017, 11:54AMThe Balance of the horn can have just as much importance as the overall weight.

+1

The balance (to me) is more important than the weight.
A heavy well balanced bass will feel lighter than a poorly balanced lightweight bass.
It is possible to make your bass "feel" lighter by adding more weight.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Tue May 02, 2017 3:42 pm

I'd put money on the stock Kanstul 1662 being pretty light. It lacks a lot of the bracing you see on other horns, plus the stock version has a fairly light bell. Kanstul is known for light horns. I'm sure it would be lighter than a Shires based on horns I've played. I have a 1662i, but I opted for a heavier bell. Also, if you get an opportunity, you might try an old Conn. That D slide is nice, but it adds weight. Some horns like the old Conns come with an E slide. Might be a trade off. I've been using an old 70h as a small bass for when I don't need two valves, but I'm also having a plugin valve made for it.

Along that line (plug in valve), I saw a Yamaha 622 for sale on eBay with the removable second valve. Only use the extra weight when you really need it. Yammies are nice basses.

I'd also recommend a grip like the Sheridan grip, or a soldered on thumb rest, or the Yamaha. I've also been having some left arm pain, but I'm finding that rest (and euphonium for keeping the chops going) is helping. I've been thinking about a Ergobone as well.

Anyway, good luck. Let us know how things turn out.

ttf_gbedinger · Post by **ttf_gbedinger** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:12 pm

I bought a Yamaha 822g for the same reason...the second valve comes off if I don't need it. I also put on a Greenhoe thumbrest on it for those times I need both valves.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Quote from: bassclef on May 02, 2017, 10:08AMIf you're an otherwise healthy individual, don't dismiss the idea of some properly done strength training focused on the musculature used to support the instrument.

If only someone would do a YouTube video about that...

Actually I did and will post the video shortly.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue May 02, 2017 6:36 pm

I haven't weighed anything but an Elkhart 62H felt the lightest to me. Also the old Holton TR180s felt lighter than most modern stuff. I have a Conn 62HG Greehoe, that's not light but well balanced so that the weight is not all that noticeable.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue May 02, 2017 6:47 pm

Nothing that's going to fix everyone's problems but here is some food for thought.

https://youtu.be/emCK4vtnJ6w

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Wed May 03, 2017 8:49 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 02, 2017, 06:47PMNothing that's going to fix everyone's problems but here is some food for thought.

https://youtu.be/emCK4vtnJ6w

Nice video. First one I've seen that addresses this important aspect of playing along with some targeted exercises. We talk so much about strengthening the embouchure, and not so much about the muscles that keep the horn up and stable.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed May 03, 2017 9:03 am

Quote from: modelerdc on May 02, 2017, 06:36PMI haven't weighed anything but an Elkhart 62H felt the lightest to me. Also the old Holton TR180s felt lighter than most modern stuff. I have a Conn 62HG Greehoe, that's not light but well balanced so that the weight is not all that noticeable.

The Holtons with 9 and 1/2 inch bells are light instruments compared to most any other bass trombone that I've played. I feel like Elkhart Conns are heavier than Holtons. I find this thread, and others that talk about straps and other grip devices, very intriguing. I've never had an issue with this. My hands are not overly big and I'm not a big person. The only horn I had an issue holding was the SS Duo Gravis. Between the weight of the bell and reaching around the cross brace for the F lever I found that horn impossible to play for long periods of time. I've found that if the levers are properly placed for one's hand there generally shouldn't be an issue. I found the Rath R9 with a rotary setup comfortable to hold-however not as light as my Holtons but somewhat heavier than my Bach 50BG2.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Wed May 03, 2017 4:59 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on May 03, 2017, 09:03AMThe Holtons with 9 and 1/2 inch bells are light instruments compared to most any other bass trombone that I've played. I feel like Elkhart Conns are heavier than Holtons. I find this thread, and others that talk about straps and other grip devices, very intriguing. I've never had an issue with this. My hands are not overly big and I'm not a big person. The only horn I had an issue holding was the SS Duo Gravis. Between the weight of the bell and reaching around the cross brace for the F lever I found that horn impossible to play for long periods of time. I've found that if the levers are properly placed for one's hand there generally shouldn't be an issue. I found the Rath R9 with a rotary setup comfortable to hold-however not as light as my Holtons but somewhat heavier than my Bach 50BG2.

I also never noticed an issue, and for years I played an extremely heavy bass, Edwards dependant thayer with screw bell, counterweight and heavy lock rings on the valves. The reason I got a brace was not because I was noticing problems, but a friend of mine in an orchestra job here in Melbourne ended up having to use that ergo bone thing because of unexpected pain. After seeing the hassle of using that, I thought it looked like something I never wanted to have to do, so I bought a normal brace to try out for a while. At first it didn't really seem much different. Some months on, whenever I tried another bass with no brace, or tried taking mine off I definitely noticed the difference. I didn't realise how hard I was working just to hold the horn without one. I think its something thats really easy to just try fir a few weeks. Id br surprised if you took it off after that and didn't notice any difference. I know a few bach 42 players that are using braces now, just because it makes it that much easier.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Thu May 04, 2017 3:24 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 02, 2017, 06:47PMNothing that's going to fix everyone's problems but here is some food for thought.

https://youtu.be/emCK4vtnJ6w

Thanks for the video, Dan. I'm going get a lighter kettlebell and give this a go.

--Andy in OKC

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu May 04, 2017 10:59 am

The lightest bass trombone I played is the Elkhart Conn 60h. Not easy to get, and sound.......not the lightest

Leif

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:08 am

Quote from: wgwbassbone on May 03, 2017, 09:03AMThe Holtons with 9 and 1/2 inch bells are light instruments compared to most any other bass trombone that I've played. I feel like Elkhart Conns are heavier than Holtons. I find this thread, and others that talk about straps and other grip devices, very intriguing. I've never had an issue with this. My hands are not overly big and I'm not a big person. The only horn I had an issue holding was the SS Duo Gravis. Between the weight of the bell and reaching around the cross brace for the F lever I found that horn impossible to play for long periods of time. I've found that if the levers are properly placed for one's hand there generally shouldn't be an issue. I found the Rath R9 with a rotary setup comfortable to hold-however not as light as my Holtons but somewhat heavier than my Bach 50BG2.

I concur on 9.5" bell Holtons.

I also note that I've similarly never experienced anything approaching a problem holding a bass trombone (*) - and that I also have relatively small hands (7" wrist to tip of middle finger, 3.5" across the palm side to side). Is it a phenomenon of larger hand size?

(*) Apart from those like the old G bass that are very front-heavy, when the wrist torque causes aching.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:32 am

In my instance yes, no brace or change in how I work out or hold the instrument will change the size of my hands and the way the instrument is designed. My hand does not fit the instrument and I'm buying a new bass trombone. And I will also restate that I'm only looking at independent horns. The reason I didn't mention anything about balance is that it is not a measurable variable, it definetley is something that some horns do better than others, but there isn't a universal metric for it unlike weight, which is easily measurable.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Thu May 04, 2017 11:48 am

I'm not sure that everyone who looks for help holding the instrument has a condition caused by holding the instrument. I just have some tendonitis around my elbow, probably caused by the way I hold my arm when I sleep. Holding a horn in place for more than 15 minutes at a time aggravates it, and a bass aggravates it more than a tenor. Other people have different situations. Also, when you're 25, you can do a lot of things to your body before it rebels. When you're over 50, things change. I find a lighter horn allows me to play for longer with less discomfort, and I generally prefer the way it plays. I gave away a really nice silver sonic 3b screw bell because it was just too heavy to play, although I loved the way it felt and sounded.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Thu May 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Quote from: RabidDolphin on May 04, 2017, 11:32AM My hand does not fit the instrument...The reason I didn't mention anything about balance is that it is not a measurable variable, it definetley is something that some horns do better than others, but there isn't a universal metric for it unlike weight, which is easily measurable.

Seems to me that you're addressing what you perceive to be the problem by changing the wrong variable. If the 8b doesn't fit your hand then getting a lighter instrument that also doesn't fit your hand is not likely to help. Forgive me if I missed it but is your hand too small or too large for your current instrument?

If too small, perhaps a narrow slide would help. Or the curved cross brace like on Courtois basses?

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Thu May 04, 2017 1:43 pm

Actually, since you're in Wisconsin I'd suggest going to M&W Custom Trombones to see if they'll work with you to build an instrument that, literally, fits you perfectly.

ttf_Alex · Post by **ttf_Alex** » Thu May 04, 2017 3:26 pm

Quote from: RabidDolphin on May 04, 2017, 11:32AMThe reason I didn't mention anything about balance is that it is not a measurable variable, it definetley is something that some horns do better than others, but there isn't a universal metric for it unlike weight, which is easily measurable.

dont get too.hung up on measurable variables.
the pbysical weight on the scales has very little to do how heavy or light it feels when on your shoulder. how the weight is distributed will decide how heavy the instrument "feels", more than its actual weight.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 04, 2017 5:29 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 04, 2017, 01:43PMActually, since you're in Wisconsin I'd suggest going to M&W Custom Trombones to see if they'll work with you to build an instrument that, literally, fits you perfectly.

They're probably who I'm going to go with, but I was just wondering if there were options I forgot about.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Fri May 05, 2017 5:14 am

Quote from: RabidDolphin on May 04, 2017, 05:29PMThey're probably who I'm going to go with, but I was just wondering if there were options I forgot about.

From what I hear WONDERFUL instruments. But be prepared to spend to get what you want! I would if I could.

ttf_Horn Builder · Post by **ttf_Horn Builder** » Fri May 05, 2017 7:29 am

Bill, please look at our website for yourself. (customtrombones.com) You will see that our prices are no more expensive than any of the other companies out there. Yes, you can spend less on a factory Bach or Conn, but then we don't make "factory" instruments. We deliberately put our prices right in the "ball park" with the other well known manufacturers.

M

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Sun May 07, 2017 6:09 am

Quote from: Horn Builder on May 05, 2017, 07:29AMBill, please look at our website for yourself. (customtrombones.com) You will see that our prices are no more expensive than any of the other companies out there. Yes, you can spend less on a factory Bach or Conn, but then we don't make "factory" instruments. We deliberately put our prices right in the "ball park" with the other well known manufacturers.

M
Matthew I should've been a little more clear. The OP is playing an 8B right now and my statement was meant to reflect that. I have been to your website and would love to try and purchase an instrument! Only 2 more years of college to pay for!!

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Sun May 07, 2017 6:09 am

Quote from: Horn Builder on May 05, 2017, 07:29AMBill, please look at our website for yourself. (customtrombones.com) You will see that our prices are no more expensive than any of the other companies out there. Yes, you can spend less on a factory Bach or Conn, but then we don't make "factory" instruments. We deliberately put our prices right in the "ball park" with the other well known manufacturers.

M
Matthew I should've been a little more clear. The OP is playing an 8B right now and my statement was meant to reflect that. I have been to your website and would love to try and purchase an instrument! Only 2 more years of college to pay for!!