Women Trombonists

[MStarke]

https://www.swr.de/swr2/musik-klassik/s ... -4068.html

She's been playing solo in the orchestra since 2016, was solo trombonist from 2009 - 2012 in the Bruckner Orchestra, Linz Austria. And has degrees in Physics and Physico-Informatics at the Keio Universität in Tokyo.

Mayumi Shimizu is a really great player. I don't really know her, but auditioned for one or two of the same universities at the same day. She was definitely on another level. And the SWR is an extremely good orchestra! There is another female trombonist in the orchestra as well. (The orchestra has been two separate ones until a few years ago, that's why they have so many trombonists)

[Kbiggs]

This might be controversial, but I would also add Sasha Romero to this list.

[StephenK]

Isobel Daws recently appointed Principal at Luxembourg Philharmonic
https://www.trombone.net/newsitem/isobe ... ipal-job/7

[LeTromboniste]

This might be controversial, but I would also add Sasha Romero to this list.

Well, she's a woman, so I'm hoping this shouldn't be controversial!


I will add, in terms of well-established players currently active in the early music scene :

Catherine Motuz
Sue Addison
Emily White
Stephanie Dyer
Claire McIntyre
Liza Malamut

[DougHulme]

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

[Posaunus]

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch?

[Bach5G]

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch?

Plays in high heels?

[Kbiggs]

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch?

Plays in high heels?

Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.

[DougHulme]

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

Gosh Doug - not sure how to counsel you. Do you play extra-sensitively, with a feminine touch?

Plays in high heels?

The secrets out! Please dont tell the rest of the forum ... Doug

[DougHulme]

(KBiggs)... Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.

You are of course quite right (though that still doesent stop the 'banter' between my wife and I after all the poor girl has to play a mere cornet!!).... Doug

[BGuttman]

(KBiggs)... Nah. You’re a musician married to another musician, and you’re studying with a teacher. Everything else is distraction.

You are of course quite right (though that still doesent stop the 'banter' between my wife and I after all the poor girl has to play a mere cornet!!).... Doug

Just remember: your bass trombone has more brass in it than 3 of her cornets.

[DougHulme]

Nice one, I will remember that (and use in combat!)... Doug

[musicofnote]

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[ghmerrill]

If this is open to more local/regional candidates ... Becca Clemmons (https://www.durhamjazzworkshop.org/becca-clemens.html)

[MBurner]

Rebecca Patterson- awesome bass trombone player and the bass bone chair at Radio City! Check her out.

[RobTheWriter]

Sheila Tracey was a trombonist in the Ivy Benson All Girls Band in the 1950s. She later worked for the BBC and was President of the British Trombone Society. More here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Tracy

[DJC0189]

Dr. Jeannie Little - Principal at Bozeman Symphony, prof at Montana State

Lisa Stoneham- Bass Bone at Bozeman Symphony

[mgladdish]

Bones Apart are great:

https://www.youtube.com/@BonesApartTbn4tet

[KathleenDuRant]

This is a great thread and discussion. It is pretty funny that the first entry in the Glisandoo blog says that women were not encouraged to play trombone because the embouchure needed would make you "ugly" and today people pay money for face yoga to learn exercises to keep their face looking young.

[Hfan24]

Megumi Kanda In MSO is a stellar player

[jonathanharker]

Jane Salmon teaches and plays in all the things in London. Cited one of her posts for the soprano trombone article.

[Ukkis]

In sweden you have a few i'll list that are off the top of my head (unless someone beat me to it)
Karin Hammar
Mimmi Hammar
Lisa Bodelius
Gunhild Karling

[iranzi]

Melba Liston
Nabou Claerhout
Reut Regev
Kalia Vandever
Sasha Romero
Lis Wessberg
Sarah Gail Brand
Annie Whitehead

Historic article on 19th - early 20th century players https://tinyurl.com/5mrtd55y

[iranzi]

So I wonder where I should be found on this current theme... as a mere male trombonist but taught by a woman trombonist should this make me better or worse than I am!!! Also married to a woman cornet player... counselling clearly needed... Doug

maybe a shout out to your teacher?

Nice one, I will remember that (and use in combat!)... Doug

good example of bad "banter". relative weights of blunt metal implements???

[LetItSlide]

The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.

[LeTromboniste]

The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

[LetItSlide]

The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.

[LeTromboniste]

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.

Wow. Just wow.

[tbdana]

The chromosome profile of a player matters not to me.

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

Thank you.

[tbdana]

Until roughly half of professional trombone players are women, it should matter a great deal to us, collectively.

So stop playing the trombone and find a woman to replace you in your job, and you'll even it up, if only just a little.

Or, with that attitude, maybe we should just make a concerted effort to take your work away from you? Please list the people you play for, and we'll see if we can get a woman in there instead of you.

Unless you wouldn't like that kind of piss poor attitude.

[iranzi]

Some more fantastic women trombonists:

Monique Buzzarté
Sophie Cooper
Gina Benalcázar López



https://tinyurl.com/3zrawkcm

from that wiki link, about Monique Buzzarté:
[…] was a key part of an international protest on behalf of the International Alliance for Women in Music (IAWM) against discrimination based on gender by the Vienna Philharmonic. The protests lead to the admission of women as members of the Vienna Philharmonic in 1997.[…]

[harrisonreed]

Until the underlying issue/cultural norm/whatever you want to call it regarding how child care is looked at, conducted, and dealt with in nearly every society is solved, it is unlikely that we will see a 50/50 gender split in many sectors, especially low paying fields like the arts.

I'm just pointing out an issue, not any belief about it. The perception or truth about affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure. It's a huge wall. That's obviously just for women who have children, but that will skew the numbers for any profession, especially a low paying one.

[LeTromboniste]

Until the underlying issue/cultural norm/whatever you want to call it regarding how child care is looked at, conducted, and dealt with in nearly every society is solved, it is unlikely that we will see a 50/50 gender split in many sectors, especially low paying fields like the arts.

I'm just pointing out an issue, not any belief about it. The perception or truth about affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure. It's a huge wall. That's obviously just for women who have children, but that will skew the numbers for any profession, especially a low paying one.

Yes absolutely, it's a multi-faceted issue indeed, and yes, we could do all the work we want and not reach 50/50 because there are many causes including widespread societal ones (which we should also work to fix).

I would just add that that's not a reason not to question what problems actually are within our small field and whether we are ourselves part of the problem. If factors outside of the field were the only reasons, we'd see roughly the same gender ratio across classical music. The fact is, the trombone is among the instruments with the most abysmal gender gaps, and there are reasons inherent to the trombone world why that is.

The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.

[harrisonreed]

Yes absolutely, it's a multi-faceted issue indeed, and yes, we could do all the work we want and not reach 50/50 because there are many causes including widespread societal ones (which we should also work to fix).

I would just add that that's not a reason not to question what problems actually are within our small field and whether we are ourselves part of the problem. If factors outside of the field were the only reasons, we'd see roughly the same gender ratio across classical music. The fact is, the trombone is among the instruments with the most abysmal gender gaps, and there are reasons inherent to the trombone world why that is.

The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.

You and I are in agreement 100%, then.

[Bach5G]

“The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.”

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.

[BGuttman]

I think some of this dates from when we were in school. Lugging around an instrument case marks you as a "band nerd" and many girls want to avoid this stigma, so they take up the flute; which can be hidden in a large handbag.

I've met and played with many female trombone players of all stripes from beginners to really fine players. Being female doesn't preclude anyone from playing trombone. It's just cultural.

[iranzi]

It's important to start saying it out loud.

This!!!!

[...] the underlying issue [...] affordable child care being low quality, the connotations around using it, feelings of guilt around utilizing it, social pressure [...]

If men started giving birth instead of women, any such issues would very likely turn out to be easily solvable. Could finally fix this problem for good…

[mbarbier]

“The dominant culture in the trombone world is, overall, quite deeply mysoginistic and filled with traits of toxic masculinity, and that's reflected at every level, social, economic and yes, also artistic/aesthetic. It's important to start saying it out loud.”

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.

As a non binary trombonist who teaches at a college where the vast majority of my students are queer and not male, they'd all disagree with you based on experiences regularly brought to lessons from the gigs they play (as well as my own experiences). I'd definitely agree that it's better than Munich in the 70's but the intense bro culture in the brass world is unfortunately heavily dominant.

[iranzi]

[deleted]

[iranzi]

[...] Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? [...]

Munich in the '70s was the setting of a lot of R.W. Fassbinder's films, where he had the inner workings of misogyny sliced, diced, and flung unsparingly at the viewer. An updated take on some of the more cruel classic Hollywood melodramas (also: fun and witty and beautiful).

[LeTromboniste]

Misogynistic.

I find this very hard to believe. Maybe in Munich in the 70s and Vienna prior to the late 90s. But now? Pockets maybe but the “dominant culture”. I’m skeptical.

Absolutely 100%. If the dominant trombone culture is not misogynistic, then where exactly are all the women in the trombone world? Why is it men working everywhere all the time? Why is it that the man at the top of the food chain of this field can openly support a known abuser of women while failing to support his own former student as she was being pressured to shut up about a sexual assault on a colleague, and yet save for a handful of people, all we hear in the trombone world is crickets, crickets, crickets?

I won't even go into how the generally accepted concept of what is "good" trombone playing (especially in the orchestral world) absolutely reeks of machism.

Socially, the bro culture is very much a thing, and let's face it we've all at one point or another participated in it. It's systemic.

Yes, it's better than it was, on some fronts. It's still light-years away from being good.

[iranzi]

[...] the food chain of this field [...]

great line!

it’s been kicking about in my head all evening.
those consonants singing. train wheel rhythms

IMG_1145.jpeg

[iranzi]

Carol Jarvis
Hailey Brinnel
Jennifer Wharton (bass trombone)
Allison Martin
Audrey Ochoa
Haruka Kikuchi
Alba Pujals
Agnes Darelid
Itsumi Komano
Naomi Moon Siegel

[Kbiggs]

Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:

[sf105]

Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:

Holy Cow Finetales! How do you find the time to play like that and still post here?

S

[iranzi]

Another one to add to the list: Tiffany Johns. She’s here on TromboneChat under the name finetales. Some of her output is on youtube like this most recent multitrack extravaganza:

Holy Cow Finetales! How do you find the time to play like that and still post here?

S

Really mindblowing! And the instrumentation is just... i dont know, puts a big grin on my face. I want all those exotic looking horns!!!

There are several women tombonists on this forum, i think

[Matt K]

For what it's worth, disparities are not necessarily causally linked to discrimination. The common, extreme examples here are the very low prevalence (1-5%) of representation in oil fields and waste management positions, which tend to be because only men, and a pretty unique subset of men, want to do those types of jobs.

Clearly, this is not the case in the music world. But, I do not think that misogyny is the exclusive explanation for why, specifically, few trombonists are women. After all, the organizations that have been mentioned (NYP, Cleveland, etc.) have women in other positions and should be exposed to the same level of discrimination. If misogyny were the explanation for 100% of the discrepancy, you would expect to see totally homogenous male representation uniformly across all instruments, which is clearly not the case.

I think a much better goal is to eliminate the discrimination, harassment, and other toxic elements of culture rather than to aim for an even distribution of sex representation of instruments. First, if the goal of evening out the ratio is achieved, but the culture is not addressed, then what has essentially been done is to increase the total amount of discriminatory behavior. Second, this naturally allows for some expected, reasonable divergence of preference by removing the roadblocks that are suppressing representation. I would be surprised if 50% is the actual, natural ratio for trombone, just as I would be surprised if the natural ratio for harp players was 50%.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for there to be more women in the low brass world and on the jazz scene. But I don't think that in a world that somehow had zero discrimination, that the ratio would peak at more than 10%.

[iranzi]

[...] natural [...]

How is ANYTHING "natural"?

I'd let women decide what's good or not on this issue

P.S. even that sentence is misogynist! no running away from it: it's built into the language.
(going to shut up about it now)

[tbdana]

For what it's worth, disparities are not necessarily causally linked to discrimination. The common, extreme examples here are the very low prevalence (1-5%) of representation in oil fields and waste management positions, which tend to be because only men, and a pretty unique subset of men, want to do those types of jobs.

Clearly, this is not the case in the music world. But, I do not think that misogyny is the exclusive explanation for why, specifically, few trombonists are women. After all, the organizations that have been mentioned (NYP, Cleveland, etc.) have women in other positions and should be exposed to the same level of discrimination. If misogyny were the explanation for 100% of the discrepancy, you would expect to see totally homogenous male representation uniformly across all instruments, which is clearly not the case.

I think a much better goal is to eliminate the discrimination, harassment, and other toxic elements of culture rather than to aim for an even distribution of sex representation of instruments. First, if the goal of evening out the ratio is achieved, but the culture is not addressed, then what has essentially been done is to increase the total amount of discriminatory behavior. Second, this naturally allows for some expected, reasonable divergence of preference by removing the roadblocks that are suppressing representation. I would be surprised if 50% is the actual, natural ratio for trombone, just as I would be surprised if the natural ratio for harp players was 50%.

Don't get me wrong. I would love for there to be more women in the low brass world and on the jazz scene. But I don't think that in a world that somehow had zero discrimination, that the ratio would peak at more than 10%.

I think you make an awful lot of false assumptions in this post. There aren't male instruments and female instruments that the sexes "naturally" gravitate towards. But there are certainly human attitudes about those instruments that affect who plays them and who gets jobs. Brass instruments are not inherently masculine instruments, but they are seen by men as masculine instruments. It's the attitudes, not the instruments, that are masculine or feminine. Human beings don't naturally gravitate toward one instrument or another in the absence of cultural labeling and saturating the environment with artificial notions.

If you were a woman in the professional trombone world, I dare say you'd have a very different perspective and experience that would give you a completely different opinion.

[tbdana]

By the way, even though it's kind of sad and pathetic to do so, I'd like to nominate myself for membership in this thread. I play the trombone, too, not that anyone has noticed. LOL!