70s Bach LT12 modifications

[Bleek]

Hi. I have just purchased on a whim a fairly ugly but functional Bach 12 from the mid 70s.

I’m pretty certain I would like the freedom to use Shires/Brad Close leadpipes so would like to have the leadpipe pulled and and an adapter put on.

Has anyone fixed up or played around with their Bach 12s with success, or not?

The idea is to end up with a horn that is idiomatic to older style ballad playing and Singin In The Rain style pit shows.

[Pezza]

I like my Bach 12 as it is, never had any inclination to modify it.

[dukesboneman]

I have 2 12`s that I`ve modified
1) an Lt12G, I had the leadpipe pulled and put a Kanstul W6 leadpipe in. Opened the horn up
2) is a LtG bell on a 1964 12 Slide. Standard weight slide that played really well but a little heavy.
So I had the over-sleeves taken off the slide and a Light weight Nickel 12 Crook put on.
Now it`s my go to Horn . Slide is light weight and very fast

[Bleek]

That’s great, thanks. I’m very curious about the Brad Close 32h copper seamed leadpipe in it… but only based on internet talk. I like the idea of putting a Shires threaded collar on it to play around but if problematic I might have to just go press fit then solder something in.

I’m also aware that some people have changed out the slide crooks for more rounded King style crooks?

[gregwaits]

One mod I’d consider on any Bach really is swapping out that dual radius slide crook for a rounded, single radius design.

I played a late-70s 12 for nearly 30 years, only moving to a Conn 6H because I simply wasn’t being heard as easily.

[ithinknot]

The crook issue on Elkhart Bachs isn't the shape - even if the curves are weirdly tighter than the NY/MV horns - so much as the fact that they started putting the crook from the 6 on all the small bores, so it's significantly undersized on the 12 and LT16M. (The difference is pretty minor on an 8.)

Going the single radius King route is fine, but that's quite a significant difference ...that some people like.

If you want a more gentle dual radius crook, very inexpensive and readily available in nickel silver or brass, then the Yamaha 354 part is exactly the right ID for a 12, and only marginally undersized on a 16M. Part of the 3B crook's deal is that it's actually slightly oversized even for a .508/9.

I put the Yamaha on a Corp LT16M with a cracked crook, and it opened the horn up by a sensible amount and made some of the slotting significantly less odd, without feeling crazy different (...and better than the modern ones with the "open neckpipe" but retaining the baby crook). Sold that horn to a longtime Bach pro who thought it was fantastic.

FWIW I ordered a made-up part with the waterkey and bumper fitted, but I'd recommend getting the naked version and fitting lighter hardware. The complete set weighs about 8g more than the Bach equivalent, and the extra mass out on the end of the slide was noticeable... not bad, but you knew about it.

[Matt K]

M/K drawing has a bunch of options too. I have one of their Olds recordings crooks which has an ID of .515 IIRC. Which I suspect would be a good option. Can get nickel or yellow brass. Mine plays great on a 500/525 I have. Dual radius too, so closer to the Bach crook

[ithinknot]

M/K drawing has a bunch of options too. I have one of their Olds recordings crooks which has an ID of .515 IIRC.

.545 - you're aiming for something like the outer ID, not the inner. They also have .540 crooks with King-style expanded ends, which end up being quite similar to the $20 Yamaha part (.543 ID).

[dukesboneman]

Not really a Bach 12 but I had a Lt16M years ago that I swapped out the tuning slide crook and the hand slide crook with crooks from a 3B. coupled with a Kanstul H8 leadpipe, this baby screamed! changing the crooks made a lot of difference.

[ithinknot]

I had a Lt16M years ago that I swapped out the tuning slide crook and the hand slide crook with crooks from a 3B.

How was the intonation? That tuning slide taper is quite different.

[dukesboneman]

ithinknot - I had no problems with intonation.. After the swap the horn blew so free and open.
I should say that I don`t use the tuning slide (always all the way in) so my ears are my tuning slide. So again I noticed no significant difference in tuning at all

[Matt K]

M/K drawing has a bunch of options too. I have one of their Olds recordings crooks which has an ID of .515 IIRC.

.545 - you're aiming for something like the outer ID, not the inner. They also have .540 crooks with King-style expanded ends, which end up being quite similar to the $20 Yamaha part (.543 ID).

Yes, you're correct, just found the part I have:
https://www.mkdrawing.com/product/tromb ... mall-bore/

Mine plays great. Intonation was sharp at first but I think it's because I hadn't played anything small for awhile and it was super hot out (and I've been practicing in the garage) so now that I've played drones on it for a few months it's my favorite horn and the intonation on it is rock solid. I have a wide glide that I've been tempted to put on it too... the narrowness of it bothered me at first too, but I've also gotten used to it so alas... maybe a project for a 2nd slide at some point.

[Bleek]

.545 - you're aiming for something like the outer ID, not the inner. They also have .540 crooks with King-style expanded ends, which end up being quite similar to the $20 Yamaha part (.543 ID).

Yes, you're correct, just found the part I have:
https://www.mkdrawing.com/product/tromb ... mall-bore/

This looks like a great option. Does MK Drawing make a threaded leadpipe collar that would work with the 12? There website is maze without an entrance…

[Matt K]

If you want a collar your best bet is probably ordering from Shires or Edwards. You can also get a large shank one. I’ve actually done that and the downside is that your tech needs to put a shim on the leadpipe so it fits with the larger set of threads. I would avoid using a Bi thread adapter —- for one thing they are large shank only but I’ve had problems with my small shank leadpipes in the larger collar because the threads don’t line up precisely on the bi thread.

If I were doing my current project again I would probably have my tech order from Getzen/Edwards

[Bleek]

Great. Is at the tech now. The inners and everything looks in great condition. We are going to replace to original crook with the MK Drawing Olds one to open it up a bit and follow the path by a lot of the studio players who used to use these by using more open King or other similar crooks.

He is also going to pull the the lead pipe and fingers crossed not ruin the inner slide with it. If so we'll have to get an inner from Bach. But the inners look perfect so hopefully they survive. Then we'll put on a collar for Shires threads and possibly take a punt on the Brad Close 32H pipe. Although I have a couple of .500 Shires pipes I could check out.

And at the end of this hopefully is something that will be a idiomatic, Mancini'esque, ballad, old LA studio horn

And, turns out it is an LT12. I'm no Bach aficionado and didn't realise the lightweight nickel slide is not standard with the 12. This has the lightweight slide.

[dukesboneman]

The LT slide is a standard option on all Bach horns

[Slidehamilton]

I had my last Lt 12 with interchangeable lead pipes. I used a Shires #2. I thought it blew great!