Place of the trombone in small combos

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:15 pm

Hi, after having seen lots of jazz concert, a question crossed my mind.

Why in small jazz combos it's always sax and trumpet and never sax and trombone.

Does trombone have a place in small combos?

ttf_FranksProject43 · Post by **ttf_FranksProject43** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:13 pm

Check out The Crusaders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMih5WVA1p0

ttf_FranksProject43 · Post by **ttf_FranksProject43** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:22 pm

Of course, it is not always a trombone! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAev0A3IxK0

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:30 pm

Because sonically the tenor sax-trumpet is more versatile (don't forget the advantage of valves as well) than trombone-sax.

I imagine that tenor trombone + high pitch sax (such as alto or soprano) could work.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:36 pm

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Apr 30, 2017, 12:15PMHi, after having seen lots of jazz concert, a question crossed my mind.
Why in small jazz combos it's always sax and trumpet and never sax and trombone.
Does trombone have a place in small combos?
Yes.
the Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers format (Tpt, tnr, tbn) is a pretty common format. This was a popular lineup in the post bop era, and it's not impossible to see this today.
Plenty of groups have trombone as a front line instrument. It's not as common as trumpet and tenor, but trumpet and alto isn't as common either - at least not as common as it used to be. Check out JJ johnson recordings His sextet was usually tpt/tnr/tbn, Quintet was tbn/tnr.
David Gibson often uses Tbn/sax or Tbn/tpt pairings.
Marshal Gilkes (Tbn) has a trumpet player on Lost Words (Michael Rodriguez) along with the rest of his band (pno, bs, drms.)
New Orleans, Miami, the Caribbean - I see a lot of trombones in small groups in these areas. Here in Oklahoma trombone is seen quite a bit, our jazz scene has more in common with the New Orleans and KC scenes than NYC. Tbn seems common in Texas as well.

If you want Tbn featured lineups, check out trombone players. J.J. Johnson, Curtis Fuller, Julian Priester, Michael Dease, David Gibson, Marshall Gilkes, Robin Eubanks, Ryan Keberle, Luis Bonilla, Josh Roseman, Jacob Garchik, Wycliffe gordon, Conrad Herwig, Steve Turre and ray Anderson are all guys who have done albums with smaller front lines of 2 or 3 horns.

My groups are Often Tbn/Tnr front line but I use alto sometimes as well. When I have the scratch to hire more guys, I'll grab a trumpet or another sax.

Quartets are far more common than quintets or larger regardless of what instrument is in front. You see more tenor players fronting these groups than anything now-a-days. Still, there are plenty of trombonists fronting quartets.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon May 01, 2017 3:35 am

I thinking of switching to trumpet because the more work available and to physical reason, I'm 5"4 and struggle with air ,don't know what to do...

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Mon May 01, 2017 4:15 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on Apr 30, 2017, 02:36PMYes.
the Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers format (Tpt, tnr, tbn) is a pretty common format. This was a popular lineup in the post bop era, and it's not impossible to see this today.
Plenty of groups have trombone as a front line instrument. It's not as common as trumpet and tenor, but trumpet and alto isn't as common either - at least not as common as it used to be. Check out JJ johnson recordings His sextet was usually tpt/tnr/tbn, Quintet was tbn/tnr.
David Gibson often uses Tbn/sax or Tbn/tpt pairings.
Marshal Gilkes (Tbn) has a trumpet player on Lost Words (Michael Rodriguez) along with the rest of his band (pno, bs, drms.)
New Orleans, Miami, the Caribbean - I see a lot of trombones in small groups in these areas. Here in Oklahoma trombone is seen quite a bit, our jazz scene has more in common with the New Orleans and KC scenes than NYC. Tbn seems common in Texas as well.

If you want Tbn featured lineups, check out trombone players. J.J. Johnson, Curtis Fuller, Julian Priester, Michael Dease, David Gibson, Marshall Gilkes, Robin Eubanks, Ryan Keberle, Luis Bonilla, Josh Roseman, Jacob Garchik, Wycliffe gordon, Conrad Herwig, Steve Turre and ray Anderson are all guys who have done albums with smaller front lines of 2 or 3 horns.

My groups are Often Tbn/Tnr front line but I use alto sometimes as well. When I have the scratch to hire more guys, I'll grab a trumpet or another sax.

Quartets are far more common than quintets or larger regardless of what instrument is in front. You see more tenor players fronting these groups than anything now-a-days. Still, there are plenty of trombonists fronting quartets.

I w3ould add Kai Winding ...oft overlooked but an important figure!

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 01, 2017 5:09 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on May 01, 2017, 03:35AMI thinking of switching to trumpet because the more work available and to physical reason, I'm 5"4 and struggle with air ,don't know what to do...

Try doubling. It is not easy, but you will have more options.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Mon May 01, 2017 6:02 am

Quote from: vegasbound on May 01, 2017, 04:15AMI would add Kai Winding ...oft overlooked but an important figure!

Oh, I left a lot of guys out. Only so many hours in the day. I focused mainly on the guys who I listen the most to. If you have some Kai small group albums you could recommend it'd help the OP (and give me some stuff to check out as well.)

Quote from: Dixieland57 on May 01, 2017, 03:35AMI thinking of switching to trumpet because the more work available and to physical reason, I'm 5"4 and struggle with air ,don't know what to do...

So this question is more to find out if you made the right decision pursuing trombone? Well, I'm not 5'4" so I can't really offer any advice other than maybe get a valve trombone. Of course much jazz is in the 1st 4 positions. Get a trigger trombone with a G trigger and you never really need to leave 4th... If you really want to work, switch to saxophone. Every time I play a music festival, I can't swing a dead cat without hitting a saxophonist.

The world does not need anymore trumpet players, unless they are going to be as awesome and nice as Pete Clagett.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Mon May 01, 2017 6:14 am

A good place to start 54 mins of legends!

Kai, Dizzy Monk, Sonny Stitt And Art Blakey live Copenhagen 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EdIc3Nt0XE

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 01, 2017 6:16 am

Quote from: Exzaclee on May 01, 2017, 06:02AMThe world does not need anymore trumpet players, unless they are going to be as awesome and nice as Pete Clagett.
Same can be said about sax players...Pete Clagett is a new name. Nice playing. To be honest I find Dominick Farinacci a lot more interesting though it is a lot of Cliffor Brown stuff

or Till Bronner.

Or...do you mean specifically british trumpeters? There's quite a few there. Quite a few decent on international level...tough to beat them. But it is one to get some work as a freelancer, another to aspire to become a really original artist/improviser.

ttf_Nanook · Post by **ttf_Nanook** » Mon May 01, 2017 7:32 am

Quote from: FranksProject43 on Apr 30, 2017, 01:13PMCheck out The Crusaders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMih5WVA1p0

Great tune thanks for posting, I just downloaded it to my phone....

Nanook

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:58 am

M'y main problem with trombone is that I play a 547 bore and sometimes I feel like I blow into a vaccum cleaner other students and my teacher don't have problem with phrases who I struggle with due to be out of air

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon May 01, 2017 10:46 am

Maybe you need a smaller aperture on the mouthpiece.

Maybe you need to work on breath control. Note: if you are significantly older than your classmates, your lung capacity may be smaller. If you are a smoker, your lung capacity is smaller. If you grew up in a polluted city like Paris, your lung capacity is smaller.

Or maybe you need a smaller trombone. A Medium Bore can look like a large bore but needs a lot less air. Many of the great Jazz and Dixieland trombone players used instruments with 12-12.5 mm bore sizes.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon May 01, 2017 10:54 am

I'm 28 ans don't smoke

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon May 01, 2017 11:27 am

I don't see reason to use a large bore trombone to play jazz, unless you play 2nd or 3rd chair in a big band. If you are the only trombone in a groupe, it only makes life more difficult and playing more bulky and less flexible for no reason...

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Mon May 01, 2017 12:02 pm

I primary learn classical and study jazz behind and play in a big band

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Mon May 01, 2017 8:11 pm

Reading between the lines... it sounds to me like you're frustrated with trombone, and you're wondering if trumpet will be less frustrating for you...?

(1) The only way to know for sure is to try. Why not give it a try?

(2) If you're going to get another instrument, maybe consider getting a smaller trombone first.

(3) Are you studying trombone to play professionally?
If not, why worry so much?
Even pros have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Play to your strengths, work on your weaknesses, and try to enjoy yourself.

$0.02

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Tue May 02, 2017 4:55 am

Yeah I would make à living with music, teaching, playing, etc...
I'm 28 and don't know if it's a good idea to switch to trumpet

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:35 am

I wished I started doubling when I was your age (I am a trumpet player to begin with).

So, I will say it again. Why don't you try to start doubling on trumpet for few months and see how it goes? I wouldn't give up on trombone just yet, if I was you.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Tue May 02, 2017 5:57 am

I'm just a random weirdo on the internet, so take this with a grain of salt, but no, I don't think it's a good idea for you to switch to trumpet. (Although learning to double probably isn't a terrible idea.)

(1) You can always still teach. The lack of opportunities for trombones in small combos and the air problems you're describing wouldn't prevent you from teaching. No need to switch instruments for that.

(2) Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. You may envy your colleagues' air capacities, but I'll bet some of them envy your tone, your articulations, your agility, etc. There are a lot of different aspects to playing trombone. I don't know your exact situation, but I wouldn't completely give up just because you're having trouble with one aspect.

(3) If you ARE ready to give up just because you're having trouble with one aspect, I doubt switching to another instrument will help. I can almost guarantee that you'll run into problems with trumpet, too.

(4) If you drop trombone and switch to trumpet now, your development will be YEARS behind other professional trumpet players. There will be more opportunities for a good trombone player who sometimes has to take a breath in the middle of a long phrase than for a lousy trumpet player.

(5) My advice? Dig in and work on your weakest qualities. Talk to your teacher, do breath control exercises. Take up running, take up swimming. None of this will be fixed by tomorrow. Work hard and be patient with yourself.

(5a) And get a smaller trombone for jazz.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Tue May 02, 2017 6:44 am

Quote from: LowrBrass on May 02, 2017, 05:57AMI'm just a random weirdo on the internet, so take this with a grain of salt, but no, I don't think it's a good idea for you to switch to trumpet. (Although learning to double probably isn't a terrible idea.)

(1) You can always still teach. The lack of opportunities for trombones in small combos and the air problems you're describing wouldn't prevent you from teaching. No need to switch instruments for that.

(2) Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. You may envy your colleagues' air capacities, but I'll bet some of them envy your tone, your articulations, your agility, etc. There are a lot of different aspects to playing trombone. I don't know your exact situation, but I wouldn't completely give up just because you're having trouble with one aspect.

(3) If you ARE ready to give up just because you're having trouble with one aspect, I doubt switching to another instrument will help. I can almost guarantee that you'll run into problems with trumpet, too.

(4) If you drop trombone and switch to trumpet now, your development will be YEARS behind other professional trumpet players. There will be more opportunities for a good trombone player who sometimes has to take a breath in the middle of a long phrase than for a lousy trumpet player.

(5) My advice? Dig in and work on your weakest qualities. Talk to your teacher, do breath control exercises. Take up running, take up swimming. None of this will be fixed by tomorrow. Work hard and be patient with yourself.

(5a) And get a smaller trombone for jazz.

Lots of good old common sense. Especially #4.

Being a musician is a tough job. Even more than it was 30 years ago. No matter what you do, you'll have tough competition. If you are not ready for it, go get a day job. If you do, go and work it out.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Tue May 02, 2017 7:47 am

I only play trombone since 2 years

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Wed May 03, 2017 7:24 pm

Well, then you're already years behind most of your competition.

...Which could explain why they're better at some things, like breath control.

Good luck.

ttf_Dixieland57 · Post by **ttf_Dixieland57** » Thu May 04, 2017 3:39 am

Thank you

ttf_sonicsilver · Post by **ttf_sonicsilver** » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Trombone/flute sounds really nice as frontmen. Trombone/sop sax too. They're like male and female voices.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:17 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Apr 30, 2017, 12:15PMHi, after having seen lots of jazz concert, a question crossed my mind.

Why in small jazz combos it's always sax and trumpet and never sax and trombone.

Does trombone have a place in small combos?

Really good question! A few, brief thoughts on this....

I would say it's partially lack of knowledge of what the trombone can do. The images of Bird and Diz have been so prevalent over the years that it sort of helps to reinforce the idea of "trumpet and sax only."

The sound of the trombone does not project/cut like a trumpet or sax does. Back in the 40's and 50's not only was there the technical abilities of the player to play the faster tempos, but also the plethora of audio equipment was not easily accessible (like it is today) which made it even more difficult to be heard. Also, rhythm sections don't always know how to play quieter to adjust to different instruments. Because of all this, it helped delay the evolution of the trombone in it's adaptation to post WW2 Jazz.

It usually takes trombone players a little bit longer to learn how to play Jazz, then it does Tpt or Sax.

The role of education. Years ago, the Jamey Aeborsold play-a-longs were really part of mainstream jazz education. Any student wanting to learn how to play improv were told to start with those. The problem with it is, the Jamey Aeborsolds tended to focus heavily on the Bop period and forward, as if there was no Jazz before 1945!!
Jazz coming out of New Orleans had a heavy emphasis on using the trombone, along with collective improvisation. Schools and universities tend to focus the later style of Jazz (if it's new, it must be better!!!

).

If you want to hear trombone jazz, go to New Orleans! You'll hear trombones everywhere! It's awesome!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:10 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on May 01, 2017, 03:35AMI thinking of switching to trumpet because the more work available and to physical reason, I'm 5"4 and struggle with air ,don't know what to do...

I know it's late in the game for this reply, but it's about the music, not about what you're playing. You can get work in a jazz combo playing the ukulele -- you just need to make music that works in the group.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:10 am

Quote from: Dixieland57 on May 01, 2017, 03:35AMI thinking of switching to trumpet because the more work available and to physical reason, I'm 5"4 and struggle with air ,don't know what to do...

I know it's late in the game for this reply, but it's about the music, not about what you're playing. You can get work in a jazz combo playing the ukulele -- you just need to make music that works in the group.